Mixed changing room - is this considered ok these days?

Our local pools all have a mixed family section and smaller single sex rooms. The mixed one is all cubicles but the single sex is open with benches.
With kids I prefer mixed because we have 2 DDs so it's much easier if DH can be in the same changing room as us to help out, or if he takes them swimming on his own.
People shouldn't be on their phones though- maybe mention that to staff

Women of faith attending a women-only session would not be able to change/get naked and shower in a mixed sex changing room

I’ve been looking this up as I’m intrigued now about this. What the internet bought up (from actual sources, rather than just from mumsnet threads and weird transgender websites) was that the problem with Muslim women swimming is the way clothing sticks to the body, which is haram in the presence of men. It is nothing to do with being within the vicinity of men. However I then came across this which was the second from top Google response - https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/159926

Which I’d hoped was satire, but it appears not. I think this is not a conversation for ‘white saviours’ to try and solve. The issue of religious oppression can stem much larger than a swimming pool petition and clearly voices on it shouldn’t come from those who don’t know much about the religion (myself included)

Women of faith attending a women-only session would not be able to change/get naked and shower in a mixed sex changing room

I’ve been looking this up as I’m intrigued now about this. What the internet bought up (from actual sources, rather than just from mumsnet threads and weird transgender websites) was that the problem with Muslim women swimming is the way clothing sticks to the body, which is haram in the presence of men. It is nothing to do with being within the vicinity of men. However I then came across this which was the second from top Google response - https://islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/159926

Which I’d hoped was satire, but it appears not. I think this is not a conversation for ‘white saviours’ to try and solve. The issue of religious oppression can stem much larger than a swimming pool petition and clearly voices on it shouldn’t come from those who don’t know much about the religion (myself included)

Sarah Summers: I'm not comfortable talking about my rape in front of male people. Do you have any single sex support groups for female survivors only?

Survivors' Network: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If you want single sex support you will have to look elsewhere.

Sarah Summers (to other local rape crisis organisations): I'm not comfortable talking about my rape in front of male people. Do you have any single sex support groups for female survivors only?

All other rape crisis organisations in Sussex: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If you want single sex support you will have to look elsewhere.

Sarah Summers: There don't appear to be any.

Trans Activists: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If you want single sex support you will have to start your own.

Sarah Summers (to meeting venues): I'm looking to start a female only rape crisis support group. We need a safe space which is guaranteed to be female only while we are using it. Can you help?

Trans Activists (to meeting venues): Don't host this group of women, they're an anti trans hate group.

Meanwhile in Scotland...

Mridul Wadhwa (trans woman and CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre): Female rape survivors who want single sex support are bigots who need to reframe their trauma. If they want to be helped they can expect to be challenged on their prejudices.

Female rape survivor (to Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre): Sorry to ask, but the counsellor I have been allocated uses they/them pronouns. Can you confirm whether they are female or male?

Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre: No we can't, go away you transphobic bigot.

Female employee of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre: Wait...WHAT? We shouldn't be doing that.

Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre to female employee: You're fired!

JK Rowling: Female rape survivors should have access to single sex rape crisis support. This is a scandal.

Trans Activists to JK Rowling: Trans women are women and belong in all women's spaces. If bigoted rape survivors want single sex support, they'll have to start their own.

JK Rowling: Well, luckily I'm a billionaire...

(sets up Beira's Place)

Trans Activists: JK Rowling the evil Nazi TERF witch has set up a transphobic rape crisis centre. BURN IT TO THE GROUND!

And bet your life if new facilities were set up there would be entitled men still demanding to be let in.

You think it's more reasonable to expect women who want single sex spaces to fundraise for, get planning permission for, build and run a new swimming pool than it is for existing local authority leisure centres which are funded by those women's taxes to provide some single sex spaces?

Ditto rape crisis services?

Wow.

Like anyhting, if there is no venue prvoiding needs, expectations of a group of people, they start their own place out of their own pocket.

I've said everything I needed to say and not wanting to repeat myself when I've already answered the same, similar questions

The choice is easy, go to another place, petition, start up your own place or dont go. There is nothing more I can say other than reiterate that if I was unhappy with a serive as I, we have been, we go to another place or dont bother, honestly it is as simple as that.

I'm no fan of 20mph on major roads but it is what it is and I have to accpet it or try to avoid those roads as much as possible,

NB: The case you refer to I have no knowldge on this and my comments are genral comments of what I expect and do

Take care

I suppose that might be the case with newer or outdoor pools.

@Snowypeaks oh, I hadn't considered that there might be multiple pools and only one might be running a single sex session. All the swimming pools I've been to just have the one pool.

My experience of Tooting Lido, which has the often photographed rows of wooden beach hut type changing rooms with doors of different colours is that holes start to appear in the wood. They get filled up every so often but then appear again. I was about to get changed one day when I spotted an eye looking through one of the holes which was at about hip height. Ugh. I was tempted to poke it.

There are holes in the wooden walls all the way along. This type of activity is common. Worse now with camera phones.

@sleepyscientist

👋 Did you see this? I had a couple of questions for you.

Men and boys are 98% of convicted sex offenders. So it's not "regardless of gender" (by which I assume you mean sex).

You have weighed up the statistically low risk of your child being kidnapped/abducted Vs the higher risk of you or your child being victims of sex offences. You have decided that you prefer to take the risk of sexual offences being committed against you and your child. Do you think it is fair to remove the choice of women who have decided the other way?

Have you thought about getting your DH to take your DS swimming or into the male changing room?

Just to clarify - most women don't mind swimming with men, but they don't want to change/get naked and shower in the same room as men.

Women of faith attending a women-only session would not be able to change/get naked and shower in a mixed sex changing room. I think I point out somewhere else in this thread that the changing rooms serve all the pools, so other mixed-sex swim sessions would be taking place at the same time as the women-only swim, and there might be men in the changing room.

So...two groups of women, although there would be overlap, who may self-exclude if no single sex changing and showering is available. Single sex plus unisex family cubicles or a changing village caters for everyone.

What if there are no other places with a different policy?

As was the case for Sarah Summers when a rape crisis organisation refused to provide any single sex sessions because "trans women are women" and suggested she look elsewhere for a different, non existent, rape crisis service which believes female rape survivors have a right to single sex support.

You are seeing this purely from your own point of view.
Not everyone has a ten year old (or thereabouts) DS. Not everyone would be as relaxed as you seem to be if someone tried to film their child getting changed. Not everyone is able to wave away the fact that someone is sharing naked pictures of them online.
When my son was young I used family areas or if DH was there then they would go together. It worked for me then.
However, if I go swimming on my own, I still want to be safe and for that reason would like the option to be in a single sex space if I choose to.
I worry about women's spaces being eroded.
I also worry about knife crime, county lines and drug dealing although I don't see their relevance on this thread.

I’m reminded of this Magdelen Berns video - why ask corporate if YOU can wear the men’s uniform, when you could ask corporate to do away with the sexism for everyone?

Why petition your local baths so that an individual woman gets her needs met when we can petition government so that ALL women can have single sex changing areas?

’Just take your custom elsewhere’ seems a bit… capitalist? I’m not doffing my cap at the corporations, ta very much!

Presumably women who actively choose to avoid being in the company of strange men would not be attending a mixed sex swimming session anyway? Your argument is for women-only sessions really. I think these are quite common in areas with lots of religious minorities aren't they?

We have a changing village. It works well, IMO. The lines of cubicles are in line with one of the pools, so lifeguards will have a view down each line, so anyone trying to use a phone would be spotted. Also, one of the lifeguards is usually in the changing area doing cleaning on their non-poolside stint. I don't know whether they've ever had issues with cameras, but it would be harder to do it unnoticed.

The cubicles/doors don't reach right to the floor - I always assumed this was to facilitate cleaning and drainage, as rotting door and cubicle bottoms would be unattractive and unhygienic, and more costlyas they'd need more frequent replacing. However, the doors are otherwise full length. There are bars across the top, (which I assumed were mostly for stability without cutting out the overhead lighting,) but the cubicles are quite high - someone well over 6ft would have no problem standing upright.

I'm not that bothered about stripping off in public, but I would find cubicle doors up to chest height challenging.

We do have poolside showers, but there are also some individual shower cubicles for those who want to strip off entirely. They aren't really large enough to hang dry clothes in though, so you need to use a big towel that wraps right round and go to a cubicle to dress. The loos are all single sex.

A woman I assume is Muslim has joined our aquafit classes - at least, she was entirely covered save her hands feet and face, so not everyone is put off by it. However, I wouldn't know if others are put off by the changing village, because they won't be at the pool, and neither will people who just don't want to swim.

Anyway, I think if well-designed, changing villages are probably a more effective use of space - I feel I have more privacy in an individual cubicle than in a larger changing room, even if that's single sex. Though I've not been there when it's a really busy session like a wet school holiday day, so maybe it could get really busy, I don't know.

If I was that concerned and as i said, I'd take my business to another place and/or start a petition etc to get them to meet my demands.

The choice is yours.

Better to have biological sex properly defined in the EQ10 and make some single sex provision compulsory for all businesses/orgs that involve undressing.

Much quicker and more efficient use of our time than petitioning every business individually. Plus all women will then have a single sex option, not just women who live near a particular pool.

Changing rooms always used to be separate for men and women. Adding changing villages or family cubicles was a good idea. Removing single sex changing rooms was not.
The gyms/pools etc have been wrongly informed that they have to have only mixed sex changing to be "inclusive". Other times (new buildings especially) they do it to save money on space. Even when the customers say they want single sex options, the providers plough on because they think they are in the right.
People still go because they have no other choice, some people stop going for that reason. There is a potential discrimination lawsuit at every pool or gym that does not have single sex changing rooms, but it's an expensive and drawn-out process.

BTW, those demand separate changing rooms - if the demands were so great, why are gyms/pools driving away business when they clearly need the money?

As I said, if I dont like someothing i will not go there or go there and have to put up with it

Start a petition and see what support you get and present to the management/owners?

What will you do if all that avoidance results in nowhere to go?

I'm not sure what the answer is but for most it is just that, simples, ie go to another place. why not go less often and use a cab/firned etc unless you have a better idea.

FYI. There is a lot of stuff I don't like, so we just avoid it
Good luck

There's a Fifa-approved hijab for football. A Moroccan woman player wore one under her football kit at the last Women's World Cup. It didn't seem to inhibit her, she played really well! The hijab is banned by the French FA, a ban recently upheld by the courts.

I'm totally against burqas etc and the notion that one sex has to be ultra-modest while the other doesn't (which is actually a misinterpretation of the Qu'ran) but how is it helping the case to force women to choose between their religion (and their family and wider community in effect) and playing a sport? It's obvious which they will choose, and it's not the sport.
Anyway, not the main issue, but I had to get that off my chest.

Not so ‘dimples’ if you are a non-driver or disabled or restricted by other practicalities though.

Female only, male only, and family change (for mixed sex groups) should be the norm. Unisex just makes opportunities for perverts.