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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph: Teaching union opposes schools having to tell parents if child changes gender

137 replies

ResisterRex · 06/04/2024 08:39

Read it and weep:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/05/union-against-schools-telling-parents-child-changes-gender/

"A teaching union will campaign against government plans to force schools to tell parents if their child changes gender.
Members of the National Education Unionn_ (NEU) agreed on Friday to oppose what teachers described as the “compulsory ‘outing’” of pupils to parents.
Teachers at the union’s annual conference in Bournemouthh also said they would campaign against a ban on any aspect of “social transitioningg” in schools, which could include allowing children to change their pronounss_ or use lavatories or changing facilities of the opposite sex.
The motion, approved by the majority of delegates at the conference, was drawn up in response to draft government guidancee_ on gender-questioning children.
The long-awaited advice states that schoolss_ in England should not accept all requests for social transitioning and should involve parents in any decision that is made.
Speaking in favour of the campaign against the guidance, Kathryn Barton, an NEU member, said she knew of a seven-year-old who had transitioned during the summer holiday and said that “not a single pupil” had a problem with it.

...

Midge Lowe, a teacher from Doncaster, said the Government’s draft guidance was “regressive trash” and said teachers must campaign for it to be withdrawn.
...

No delegates at the conference spoke against the motion, which also stated that “schools, colleges and external providers should not change or remove LGBT++_ inclusive policies or curriculum content as ‘knee-jerk’ response to political rhetoric”."

The same union voted to affiliate with Just Like Us

https://x.com/safeschoolsuk/status/1776511307564335381?s=46&t=WHoOZZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

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AdamRyan · 07/04/2024 00:31

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2024 17:26

I was referring to the article in the OP which actually quotes an NEU member talking about how quick and easy it is for a 7 year old to change sex:
"..she knew of a seven-year-old who had transitioned during the summer holiday and said that “not a single pupil” had a problem with it. Ms Barton said: “They [the pupils] very easily changed his pronouns that they used to refer to him".
In other words, pretending a 7 year old has changed sex.

You can read for yourself the rest of the article about the NEU's stance on breaching safeguarding guidance & law by transitioning children in secret from their parents.

Socially transitioning a child is telling them that they're the opposite sex - ie changing sex from their birth sex. It's a massive unevidenced social experiment on children with a significant psychological impact. Cass is clear it's not a neutral act and it's something that adults in schools have no qualifications in dealing with. Yet the NEU is in favour of it!

You can find more evidenced and balanced views about socially transitioning young children from a qualified clinical psychologist who is explicit about the harm done when adults pretend children have changed sex.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

OK thanks. I read your post as saying schools were actually changing children's sex without parents knowledge and was a bit surprised Confused
Should have picked up on the sarcasm

ArabellaScott · 06/04/2024 21:36

😯

ResisterRex · 06/04/2024 21:30

It'll be instructive to see what the unions have to say about this on Wednesday, and why they're so pressed in schools there's a million things they can't do, except defend and expend energy and time on this. How are they even qualified? They're not.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/06/children-socially-transition-face-grave-psychological-risks/

"Transgender childrenn_ face grave psychological consequences if they are allowed to “socially transition”, a landmark review is expected to say this week.
The warning comes amid a huge rise in the number of children identifying as transgender, and deep concern that schools have been allowing pupils to change gender without their parents’ knowledge, despite Government guidancee_ to the contrary.
The Cass revieww_ into gender identity services for children, which will be published on Wednesday, has promised to consider the “important role of schools” and the challenges they face in responding to “gender-questioning” pupils.
The review, led by Dame Hilary Cass, will include an analysis of scientific literature on the effects and outcomes of social transitioning.
It is expected to say that children may experience “psychological” repercussions as a result of being allowed to change their name and pronoun to the gender of their choice. The interim report released in 2022 noted that changing a child’s name and pronouns was “not a neutral act”.
Prepubescent children should not be put on the same “pathway” as older adolescents who wish to identify as the opposite gender, the final review is expected to say.

The review’s findings are likely to be reflected in the Department for Education’s (DfE) official guidance for teachers on how to deal with transgender children, the final version of which is due to be published later this year.
...

Since the publication of the interim review, concerns have been raised with Dame Hilary about the “schools to clinics pipeline”, in which children are allowed to live as the opposite gender, thereby creating demand for more serious medical interventions later.
Earlier this week, the biggest survey of its kind revealed that primary school teachers were letting pupils change their name and pronoun without informing their familiess_.
An analysis of more than 600 school equality and trans policies reveals that up to three-quarters misrepresent laws protecting sex and gender, with some implementing rules that allow boys to use girls’ lavatories and changing rooms if they say they are a girl.
It also emerged this week that a group of Church of England schools told teachers that they would probably be breaking the laww_ if they said a person cannot change their biological sex.
Maya Forstater, the chief executive of the charity Sex Matters, who has spoken to Dame Hilary and her team, said: “Doctors are having to deal with gender-confused children who have already been socially transitioned at school for years, and are, as a result, very disturbed by the idea of going through pubertyy_, which will develop their secondary sex characteristics. If social transitioning in schools is stopped, it will take the pressure off clinics.
“The Department for Education needs to say there is no way to keep children safe in schools while you are pretending that a boy is a girl, or that a girl is a boy. You are putting children through a psychological experiment with no clinical oversight. The whole thing is a fantasy being sold to children by adults who should know better.”
Prof Michael Biggs, a sociologist at Oxford University, said: “We do know from a longitudinal Dutch study that there is compelling evidence that socially transitioning does lock in transgender identity.
“It measured gender dysphoria before puberty and then came back several years later. You cannot treat it as an innocuous measure.
“I am hoping that the review will acknowledge that this was a major intervention which prepared the ground for medical interventions. We have to at the very least understand that this is the beginning of the process of physical transition.”"

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ResisterRex · 06/04/2024 21:23

Nenen · 06/04/2024 18:20

@esmeisa and @duvet The NASUWT recently published a very interesting response to the government guidance that goes some way to explaining why the NEU appear to be taking such an extreme stance. In a nutshell, the NASUWT believe that schools following ill-conceived, contradictory, vaguely worded and unresearched government ‘guidance’ is likely to open teachers and schools up to litigation. It is clear that, once again, this government is failing pupils, parents, schools and teachers by publishing what they think is easy vote-winning claptrap based on nothing more than their own rhetoric, rather than well researched, thoughtful and helpful statutes.

NASUWT Response to the Department for Education Guidance for Schools and Colleges: Gender Questioning Children 12 March 2024

If you are interested in further reading of an intelligently researched book on some of the history behind the current situation, I recommend Helen Joyce’s book, ‘Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality’.

I'm really sorry but I couldn't find a serious challenge to the govt consultation in this link. The characterisation of the document under consultation as "ill-conceived, contradictory, vaguely worded and unresearched government ‘guidance’ is likely to open teachers and schools up to litigation" isn't one I can reconcile with what was put out to consultation. I do think the question of what to do with children who've already transitioned is a valid one but that's about it really (unless you count the Sex Matters point that the govt should adopt a proforma policy for schools that they're willing to defend in court)

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2024 18:44

Nenen · 06/04/2024 18:20

@esmeisa and @duvet The NASUWT recently published a very interesting response to the government guidance that goes some way to explaining why the NEU appear to be taking such an extreme stance. In a nutshell, the NASUWT believe that schools following ill-conceived, contradictory, vaguely worded and unresearched government ‘guidance’ is likely to open teachers and schools up to litigation. It is clear that, once again, this government is failing pupils, parents, schools and teachers by publishing what they think is easy vote-winning claptrap based on nothing more than their own rhetoric, rather than well researched, thoughtful and helpful statutes.

NASUWT Response to the Department for Education Guidance for Schools and Colleges: Gender Questioning Children 12 March 2024

If you are interested in further reading of an intelligently researched book on some of the history behind the current situation, I recommend Helen Joyce’s book, ‘Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality’.

Thank you for this. I agree that the NAS / UWT submission clearly identifies the legal challenges underpinning the guidance. There is a complete lack of case law. Stonewall and other self interested trans groups have been able to influence school policy & practice despite their lack of safeguarding & education knowledge / expertise with many schools failing to exercise due diligence. Nobody has to date challenged the assumption that the adult concept of changing sex should apply to children of any age which is a major flaw.

It's an almighty mess and the NAS / UWT are right to challenge the lack of case law and clear legal guidance that underpins this. We know that transactivist groups will target individual schools putting unacceptable pressure on them.

While the guidance is a step in the right direction, the major legal flaws will be an issue and it's unfair to expect schools to deal with them. The government needs to step up and sort out this mess, ensuring that all legal challenges are directed at them.

Nenen · 06/04/2024 18:20

@esmeisa and @duvet The NASUWT recently published a very interesting response to the government guidance that goes some way to explaining why the NEU appear to be taking such an extreme stance. In a nutshell, the NASUWT believe that schools following ill-conceived, contradictory, vaguely worded and unresearched government ‘guidance’ is likely to open teachers and schools up to litigation. It is clear that, once again, this government is failing pupils, parents, schools and teachers by publishing what they think is easy vote-winning claptrap based on nothing more than their own rhetoric, rather than well researched, thoughtful and helpful statutes.

NASUWT Response to the Department for Education Guidance for Schools and Colleges: Gender Questioning Children 12 March 2024

If you are interested in further reading of an intelligently researched book on some of the history behind the current situation, I recommend Helen Joyce’s book, ‘Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality’.

https://www.nasuwt.org.uk/static/d2972bda-2f37-4711-ae6fed997f1b4131/Consultation-Response-DfE-Guidance-for-Schools-and-Colleges-Gender-questioning-Children.pdf

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 06/04/2024 18:12

borntobequiet · 06/04/2024 11:14

Edapt is a sort of “non-union” union.

A family member, considering training to be a teacher and working as a cover supervisor for experience, got very good support and help when the school treated her badly. She’s staying with Edapt into her training and beyond. It doesn’t get involved in politics.

https://www.edapt.org.uk/?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrMyXuaythQMVkJpQBh1L6AD3EAAYASAAEgLZTfD_BwE

Yes, I switched from NEU to Edapt last year.

ResisterRex · 06/04/2024 18:09

Let's say the guidance is adopted. All guidance is meant to be followed and the DfE has other guidance that's not statutory, which schools etc are meant to follow.

So if the union instructs its members to defy this guidance, then I imagine the members have a case against the union:

  • inducement to break the rules (even the law given some of the guidance references legislation)?
  • coercion to break the law on impartiality?
  • lack of representation in the workplace as a result of these things?
  • then any aggravating or add-on factor if the group complaining against the NEU has a common feature (sex, belief etc), as direct or indirect discrimination?

IANAL but the NEU position doesn't seem correct at all.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2024 18:03

ResisterRex · 06/04/2024 17:36

It is possible for TU members to take their union to ET, yes. So if there were a group of members who felt they had a discrimination case (eg a GC group, for the purposes of this discussion), legal action is a hypothetical possibility.

Teachers trying to uphold safeguarding in the face of transctivism are currently in a dangerous position. But the new guidance will make it easier as even if it's non statutory, it clearly lays down safeguarding principles, is clear that mixed sex undressing and sleeping is not allowed etc. So a Union defying guidance that schools are expected to follow and refusing to support teachers would be in difficulties I would think?

ResisterRex · 06/04/2024 17:36

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 06/04/2024 15:35

Surely there must be some sort of legal remedy - outside of individual parents having to put their children through a trial - if a teaching union is acting against statutory safeguarding guidance and law, which they are?

I'd crowdfund for that.

It is possible for TU members to take their union to ET, yes. So if there were a group of members who felt they had a discrimination case (eg a GC group, for the purposes of this discussion), legal action is a hypothetical possibility.

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MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2024 17:26

AdamRyan · 06/04/2024 17:02

What the actual heck.

How are schools going to perform a "quick sex change" to "make their bodies right"? Confused and if they do "perform a quick sex change" how are they planning to keep that a secret?

What an odd take on it

I was referring to the article in the OP which actually quotes an NEU member talking about how quick and easy it is for a 7 year old to change sex:
"..she knew of a seven-year-old who had transitioned during the summer holiday and said that “not a single pupil” had a problem with it. Ms Barton said: “They [the pupils] very easily changed his pronouns that they used to refer to him".
In other words, pretending a 7 year old has changed sex.

You can read for yourself the rest of the article about the NEU's stance on breaching safeguarding guidance & law by transitioning children in secret from their parents.

Socially transitioning a child is telling them that they're the opposite sex - ie changing sex from their birth sex. It's a massive unevidenced social experiment on children with a significant psychological impact. Cass is clear it's not a neutral act and it's something that adults in schools have no qualifications in dealing with. Yet the NEU is in favour of it!

You can find more evidenced and balanced views about socially transitioning young children from a qualified clinical psychologist who is explicit about the harm done when adults pretend children have changed sex.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

A childhood is not reversible - Transgender Trend

Childhood social transition is seen as 'kind.' A clinical psychologist explains what we set a child up for when we socially transition them.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition

duc748 · 06/04/2024 17:19

The Union supports the right of all women (including trans women) to safe spaces

So, not safe, then.

borntobequiet · 06/04/2024 17:17

Oh and apparently the BBC, NHS and innumerable public and private bodies also believe that people, including children, can literally change sex. We know this because they tell us, endlessly.

borntobequiet · 06/04/2024 17:14

How are schools going to perform a "quick sex change" to "make their bodies right"? and if they do "perform a quick sex change" how are they planning to keep that a secret?

Of course it’s ridiculous - if you’re not aged 5 or happen to believe in gender nonsense. Unfortunately the children - and in some case their parents - believe it. As we know very well.

ArabellaScott · 06/04/2024 17:10

'We are committed to campaign for a simplified, free, statutory gender-recognition process based on self-declaration and to support rights for gender non-binary people at work and in wider society.

The Union supports the right of all women (including trans women) to safe spaces and the continuation of monitoring that can help identify discrimination and harassment against women and men.

The NASUWT’s view is that individuals have the right to self-identification and self-determination and the right to assert their gender identity free from fear, intimidation or penalty. The NASUWT has endorsed the position of the TUC on these matters.'

Conversion therapy ban should protect all people, says TUC

The TUC responds to the government's altered plans for legal protection from conversaion therapy.

https://www.tuc.org.uk/news/conversion-therapy-ban-should-protect-all-people-says-tuc

AdamRyan · 06/04/2024 17:02

MrsOvertonsWindow · 06/04/2024 08:47

The depth of ignorance is frightening.
Kids - your bodies are wrong but we can fix them with a quick sex change (and we'll keep all this a secret from your parents). 😡

What the actual heck.

How are schools going to perform a "quick sex change" to "make their bodies right"? Confused and if they do "perform a quick sex change" how are they planning to keep that a secret?

What an odd take on it

PTSDBarbiegirl · 06/04/2024 15:49

Fuck them. Child protection protocol is to never give a child the impression you are 'keeping a secret'. There could be homophobic parents encouraging transing or children could just be experimenting with the latest social contagion. Nowhere in the story would adults be permitted to advise on surgery, medication etc!!! Unless they were in the NHS and working with the consent of the family. Virtue signalling Pish.

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 06/04/2024 15:35

Surely there must be some sort of legal remedy - outside of individual parents having to put their children through a trial - if a teaching union is acting against statutory safeguarding guidance and law, which they are?

I'd crowdfund for that.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 06/04/2024 14:57

So glad I ditched the NEU last year. I felt like they were heading in this kind of direction. Ignorant, virtue-signalling bunch of idiots.

duvet · 06/04/2024 14:52

Disappointing to hear and also would consider changing unions .. keep us posted!

crunchermuncher · 06/04/2024 13:19

SinnerBoy · 06/04/2024 10:18

This Mail article was linked elsewhere yesterday. They say that children (presumably girls) who don't feel comfortable with boys in their changing rooms can shove off somewhere else:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13277255/Academy-trust-primary-school-teachers-breaking-law-pupils-trans-changing-rooms.html?ico=topics_pagination_desktop

It tells parents that in a scenario where their children is concerned about changing with a transgender pupil, the child who 'feels uncomfortable around the trans person' would be offered 'an alternative changing arrangement'.

The policy, which contradicts previous legal rulings which stated that gender critical views are protected by law, has now been removed by the Academy after a member of the public claimed it breached equality laws.^

Further, they claim that physical differences can be managed in PE. I'm not sure what these deluded ideologues are on:

It reportedly states that there should be 'few , if any, issues regarding participation in the sports of their true gender' when pupils are taking part in PE classes.

It also adds that any physical advantage afforded to a male pupil should 'be managed properly within the lesson context rather than by preventing young transgender people from participating'.

What a load of word salad that article is 😫

No one is 'preventing young transgender people from participating', but they're expected to participate in PE with the appropriate sex.

Also 'their true gender' - which is what? Their preferred gender? It's hopelessly unclear. And perhaps they could share their definition of 'gender' with the rest of us to make it clear what they are going on about.

JellySaurus · 06/04/2024 13:06

How do the policy people in the NEU cope with the cognitive dissonance?

“^Schools and colleges are in a unique position to be able to have influential conversations about topics around sexism and gender stereotypes, from a young age. Education can challenge these stereotypes and behaviours before ideas and incidents escalate.

“By trying to tackle sexism across the life of a school or college, both students and staff can be safer, and empowered to support each other.

“It is positive that teachers have been using and see value in the NEU ‘It’s Not OK’ toolkit for preventing sexism and sexual harassment.

“The rise of sexist and violent ideas online is problematic and young people are very influenced by their peers and the content driven by algorithms. Greater regulation of tech companies and quicker action on removing harmful content is needed.

“Helping young people interrogate the motivation and appeal of online figures can help students to think critically about what they see and increase confidence in reporting harassment.

“The NEU wants to see a curriculum for the modern age with a greater focus on social learning and active citizenship.

“The NEU is also working alongside other unions and the TUC on their programme on ‘Tackling sexual harassment – Building preventative cultures within the trade union movement’.”^

From another thread in FWR - Telegraph: Teaching union opposes schools having to tell parents if child changes gender

HagoftheNorth · 06/04/2024 12:26

This is a good demonstration of how important it is to GI activists to ensure this ideology is thoroughly taught in schools. They will fight very hard for this. Anyone know anything about NEU’s funding?

I wonder if this is something the Safe Schools Alliance would get involved with?