I give up

guinnessguzzler · Today 08:50

Honestly you can't argue with stupid.

Your post was an excellent piece of prose, very well put.

@PullUpTheDrawbridge Save your energy for people who engage their mind when discussing serious issues. I’m sure you can be more productive in other areas. I don’t think this FB group is good for your mental wellbeing 💐

This individual, by the way, isn't satirical in any way. Yes, this person actually turned up to defend a client in court dressed like this - and noone said anything. They do it because they CAN and if they can they WILL, and other people won't like it and might start to complain then. But we tried to warn them, before it got to this point....

https://twitter.com/babetta123/status/1776519018167275896?t=owqFhr5hNB7VzAsiVVn0QQ&s=19

I only skim read the FB posts you’ve attached but anyone who mentions the Holocaust when discussing this particular issue isn’t worth discussing it with.

And also, how long before some kind trans ally I know turns up to a doctor's appointment, court date, teacher meeting, job interview, house viewing, therapy appointment, meeting with the bank, meeting with an accountant, or even just goes to the toilet to find themselves face to face with this:

https://twitter.com/babetta123/status/1776519018167275896?t=owqFhr5hNB7VzAsiVVn0QQ&s=19

You know, we have tried do hard!! And progress is definitely being made, for sure, but it does sometimes feel like such an uphill struggle - I have really stepped back from talking to anyone except people I know agree with me about this, and it's incredibly frustrating to hear people going on about how fantastic it is that kids can be their true self etc.

I am fairly certain that there are a few people in my immediate friendship group who are going to have this all hit hone very hard and very soon - they have been falling over themselves for years to affirm a school friend of one of their daughters, against her parents wishes - someone even bought her a binder and they all use her preferred pronouns when she visits their houses, and the parents don't know. I tried warning them - 'be kind!! It's so hard for her.... Oh, him.....' - they don't even believe it themselves but I think there is an element of being desperate to be seen as accepting and 'cool'.

If this child desists, and claims she was harmed in any way by these supposedly kind adults, they could all be held culpable. I tried to tell them. We will have to see.

I don't do social media much myself, so haven't come across this. But one way of arguing publicly with naive stupidity is the faux naive move in reply. You might try, for example, "Yes, I'm sure you're right. ... It's just that ..."

Examples ...
"... It's just that I don't like how the trans movement seems to hate gay people so much."

"... It's just that I don't like how "trans" seems to want to enforce nasty outdated gender stereotypes on us all."

"... It's just that I don't like how the trans movement seems to want to stop women playing sport."

"... It's just that I don't like how "trans" seems to be so right-wing like the nazis were."

"... It's just that I don't like how the trans movement seems to want us to lie to our children about everything."

"... It's just that I don't like how "trans" seems to be so dominated by such awful men."

... And so on.

Of course it helps that you can pick so many nasty truths that do actually apply, as well as seeming to, to "trans" or the trans movement.

21 thousand members.
Here is the problem, right here.
If you were in a conversation with three other people face to face, the dynamics would be different.
The way we have conversations- like on here with unknown numbers of anonymous people - is altering the development of ideas.
Robots and sock puppets can be used to quickly dominate an online discussion leaving people thinking they are in the minority.
Does anyone even remember the days when if you were lonely you had to go to the pub and chat to whoever was there?

There'll always be laggards in any societal shift.

These days I'm sure the vast vast majority of women would agree that it's right and fair that women can vote. But during the turn of the 20th century there were many, probably most even, women saying things like that "I don't see what all the fuss is about, my husband listens to my opinion before he votes" etc. Lots of sources from the time showing that many had this view

Edit - I don't mean this to sound pessimistic. Just that some people need time to get to grips with a new idea.

When people start with “I just don’t understand…”, “I don’t get it…”, I want to scream.

There is plenty of other information out there written about the arguments on both side. Before you dismiss people as bigots from a place of admitted ignorance, why not take half an hour to find out a little bit about why they hold these views? Laziness? Fear they may agree? It’s like ignorance is laudable on this particular issue. Goes along with the infuriating “all the trans hate is just so horrible” comments you get on these forums. The tone is like they’re so worn down by the nasty meanness that they can’t bring themselves to say another word; I suspect they couldn’t even begin.

Someone was moaning about how opinionated some people are about this subject the other day at work. “I don’t understand all the trans stuff and I don’t have an opinion, but why can’t people wear what they want? What does it have to do with anyone else?” It wasn’t the place to get into any of it, but I inwardly marvelled at what they think this is about.

Fantastic optimistic posts - what a good start to the day. 😊

Honestly you can't argue with stupid. Even my husband, who is generally not a complete idiot, was trying to tell me yesterday that JKR is transphobic, because of her recent Hate Crime tweets. I just asked him if he'd read what she actually wrote, which of course he hadn't. Unfortunately The Last Leg had come on when we turned on the TV so we just caught three blokes cackling about how awful she is. Nevertheless, my hubby, like most people, of course agrees that men shouldn't be in women's changing rooms, prisons, sports etc and also recognises the clear links between trauma and rogd in girls. He just thinks we should 'leave people be', which in general I don't disagree with. I think TRAs have done a very good job of spinning any questioning, discussion etc as hate, phobia and bigotry but the truth is starting to get through. As a pp said, a few years ago it was full on #nodebate but things are changing. I also think most people don't fully take TWAW seriously, it's so obvious they're not, so they just accept it as something to be kind whilst quietly thinking to themselves that be that as it may of course they're not really. So they don't realise that by going along with it they are publically agreeing with stuff that they definitely don't support eg prisons and so on.

I also think the TRAs do the job themselves, including all the examples JKR referred to in her tweets. Yes, key people have done an amazing job turning this around, JKR with her clear articulation of the issues, Ricky Gervais using comedy to show how ridiculous it is, KJK raising it politically, Graham Linehan speaking up in the darkest days of #nodebate, but ultimately ordinary people were never going to accept this nonsense. TRAs only got as far as they did with a whole load of underhanded tactics; the forced teaming of the T to the LGB, #nodebate, co-opting a load of ideas from the disabled people's movement. I've said this before but when you trick or silence people into agreement you are going to get a bloody big shock when they don't actually go along with what you expect. That is exactly what has happened, TRAs have now pushed far too far and there is no going back.

Saying all that, I'm not sure you'll ever get through to people in that kind of social media environment but that doesn't mean we're not getting anywhere. Don't lose hope!

There has always been a loud group of people against women claiming their rights in 1900, in 1960 etc. They always resented those who upset the status quo who asked difficult questions. The loudest voice repressing women was often other women too - that is the awkward truth. If we were just facing male TRAs we would have won this fight long ago, because frankly the male TRAs let the truth spill out a lot.

Most women and good men were too scared to publicly back every gain they got till long after the battles were won. However, in secret they often agreed with the pro-women forces. Do we blame them? No we can't because it is SO hard to join the fight when it is easier and safer to sit back.

There were a bunch of people who agreed with you reading that too scared to say anything. Some are sitting at home, blaming themselves for being too cowardly to speak up, slowly peaking further. Others will have had the seeds of doubt planted or getting a little bit more water and sunlight on them, growing more and more.

Others are so angry at having their views questioned, that maybe they decide to go find more bad women to tell off. Next step is to come on mumsnet to see what the bad women are saying, oh wait that actually makes sense, but how these women are all bad. I must be a bad women if I agree with them, better repress my doubts and denounce the witches more. Back on mumsnet I will just read this thread oh wait what is a trans widow?

Oh no now I am a terf how did that happen?

You don’t need to react to the post- most people reading agree with you, and are afraid to show that under their own name.

I can’t on FB. I have a family member I need to be careful around so can’t be out on FB.

Even on here, watchers watch and learn and quietly agree. I get loads of thanks on my posts from names who aren’t actually posting on the thread- so they are reading and they care but aren’t wanting to join the conversation.

So step back and have a break. Or keep going knowing that you’re the sane voice in the conversation. Have an internal game of Bingo about what the responses will be to keep your spirits up! Don’t let the absence of other people speaking up, fool you.

At some point the fashion will move on and the virtue signalling crew will be busy out competing each other over something else equally misguided and unhelpful.

She is being called a Holocaust denier on Twitter, because she disagreed with some TRA claiming that the Nazis persecuted trans people.

Ofc, no one cares that she is correct - that (a) there were no trans people as such in the 30s/40s (b) the Nazis took - by their standards - a pretty lenient approach to cross-dressers.

This is a particularly disgusting bit of appropriation by TRAs, of the persecution of homosexuals and it exposes the lie at the core of trans-activism, being 'born this way'. Some cross-dressers did get fined or threatened with imprisonment for cross-dressing, so they simply stopped cross-dressing. TRAs hate this because it makes it so clear that cross-dressing is a lifestyle choice, unlike being gay, Jewish, Roma etc.

Do the majority of people in your group stay quiet, not comment, like etc. I'd look at those who keep their heads down and presume there is a silent majority.

Ah, this mythical time when women’s appearances weren’t being pulled apart for not meeting narrow standards of female beauty.

When was it again?

Well, pick your battles, OP.

There's a lot of sound and fury on social media. And a lot of bad faith people making bullshit emotive arguments.

That said, polling shows the vast majority of people hold views in accordance with most feminists. Most people are broadly in agreement with JK Rowling on these issues. Just most won't post about it on social media.

Would you be happy to share screenshots of your own posts, it might help people here to see how to word things. Also, it helps to see what people are responding to.

I think there is performative flouncing going on. You are right, this is real, this is deeply harming many including lgb children. However the tide has turned in the uk and turning in the us so those who do this will only shout louder. Keep calm and measured

Is this an American group?

I wondered this too - if not, what’s with the tediously predictable, ugly, parroted phrase ‘it's just the new thing for awful people to hate on’. Why do they always say ‘hate on’? Can’t they hear themselves? It makes no sense, it’s a nonsense mantra borrowed from the US and chanted like some sort of spell by people who won’t use their own actual brains to think for themselves.

You’re in the right on this one, @PullUpTheDrawbridge, never fear.

Notice how nobody is ever prepared to debate (that JKR is transphobic) in good faith - just bleat and flounce if you suggest she isn’t.

The latest criticism seems to be that there are no trans characters in Harry Potter….. well, guess what, there were no trans children (or adults) in my school when I was reading the books. That can be surprising for some kids today, demonstrating how deeply some schools are embedding this stuff

Yes, definitely.