Dutch study proves kids grow out of gender dysphoria

We need both really. This research is important in helping to build the evidence base against the affirmation approach. And let’s fact it, given the backlash against research in this area, it’s significant it’s even been researched and published at all.

There does need to be long term research in the patient group too.

To be fair, you’ve done the same upstream.

You stated The OP correctly stated what the study had shown

Even though a quick read of the abstract of the linked study reveals the study does not show what the OP stated.

It is important, I agree. But what you conclude for the former cannot be applied to the latter without further study.

I disagree.

Part of the narrative driving gender ideology is the idea that there is some natural wellspring of gender discontent that it is better treated early, to avoid long-term harms.

It is therefore really important to study gender discontent in the population as a whole, not just people who present to gender clinics (who encompass both those who meet the formal DSM V criteria for gender dysphoria and those with much softer symptoms).

I agree. It is a good study and has very interesting findings, but if it is to be a silver bullet rather than a canary in a coalmine they need to focus their attentions on patients rather than wider social psychology.

I love the "I am not addressing this easily researched topic....", which I'm completely wrong about. Followed by sharing a link which contradicts the point he is trying to make.

Lord, give me the confidence of a mediocre man...

Yes this is really key and important to recognise.

Was there a way to predict who would move on or not? Certainly reason not to use PBs.

I'd want to know what happens to the individuals who still had issues linked to their perception of their sex over more time. Through and Past 20s, especially if they don't take any steps to "transition."

If it's not a disorder then why does it require medical intervention?

AFAIK this is the first proper study on childhood gender dysphoria and long term outcomes, in that it's the only one that's lateral and peer reviewed.

And looky look what it's found.

It's almost as though we should leave kids alone to grow up rather than subjecting them to iatrogenic traumas which stunt their physical, mental and emotional development and in some cases leave them permanently disabled.

Of course gender dysphoria is a mental health disorder. It’s in the DSM 5-TR. The full name of the DSM is Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.

It’s probably the worst diagnosis ever written. For pre-adolescent children you can only diagnose a child if you believe in stereotypes. For adolescents and adults it’s purely about “marked incongruence” and “strong desire”.

If there are trans people who don’t have a “marked incongruence” or a “strong desire”, what is it that makes them trans, then?

Same here wot , I'm not stereotypical 'girly' even in middle age.

Surprise and shock! I wanted to be a boy for over 10 years of my childhood. That's a long time, and definitely would have been enough for me to get a diagnosis of gender dysphoria nowadays. (In fact, according to the DSM I still have it!) But here I am, a 48 year old woman, who is happy to be a woman, but still not keen on the bits that made puberty traumatic (periods, breasts, attention from men - though much less now I am invisible middle aged)

Of course it's a bloody phase, and sometimes a long one when being a girl can be quite shit, and gender stereotypes have gone to shit as well.

As an autistic woman I can also see how finding a group that would actually accept me would have been a huge bonus, rather than the lonely bullied girl I was at school. No one can be mean to the trans kids, they are so very extra special and must treated as so at all times (as seen at the schools my kids and friends kids attend)

Good-o. Are you also going to acknowledge being wrong about gender dysphoria no longer being classified as a disorder?

For a man with so much to say on the issue, you are surprisingly ill-informed.

Thanks. In this acknowledgement of an error you’ve demonstrated a level of maturity that others on this thread have, disappointingly, failed to.

My apologies - I read what an earlier poster said rather than look at the data.

@Lovemusic82 I hear you on the autistic fixation. Although I do think fixations can cease - and when they do, it tends to be in an abrupt "don't look back" way.
I don't see how this single study is terribly significant by itself. There are a number of problems: it was carried out at a time when awareness of gender was increasing worldwide ; it asked the respondents to reflect on gender which they might otherwise not have done; the sample includes a number of subjects with mental health conditions.
In the 1970s approximately zero children and young people thought about gender as a separate concept from sex. And we knew we were stuck with the sex we were, like it or not.

A reminder that symptoms include "preferring playmates of the opposite sex" and rely heavily on sex role stereotypes

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4096882-Surely-this-list-of-behaviours-that-challenge-social-convention-are-not-THE-list-used-by-medical-professionals-to-diagnos-gender-dysphoria

If this is the general level of DadJoke's reading comprehension then I'm not surprised he's so confused.

The first lines of the article clearly state, "Results showed at the start of the research, around one-in-10 children (11 percent) expressed 'gender non-contentedness' to varying degrees. But by age 25, just one-in-25 (4 percent) said they 'often' or 'sometimes' were discontent with their gender."

So the vast majority of these kids desisted from feeling discontented.

This is why it's vital that teachers and health care workers etc maintain a neutral approach and do not affirm confused children into mistakenly thinking that their bodies are wrong.

No, the trans community have long said that a requirement for diagnosed gender dysphoria inappropriately medicalises "being trans".
The only thing, as far as i can tell that makes someone trans is saying they are. When we describe someone as trans, we are saying "they use the words trans to describe themselves". There may be further aspects of not liking their body etc but that is not necessary.

That's why it's become so hard to discuss - no-one will ever set out clearly what they mean when they use the word.

What do you mean by "Transgender people without dysphoria"?

AGPSs? Opportunist criminals like Isla Bryson? Part-time cross-dressing males?

I agree the title needs to be amended to adhere to the findings of the article.

I think it strongly questions the existence of the "trans child", and vouches for a careful and prolonged diagnostic process. If you affirm that the desire of being the opposite sex means that you need to become the opposite gender (e.g. immediate change of name and pronouns), and this is set and unmodifiable, you are very likely increasing the risk of a diagnosis of gender dysphoria once the child reaches adolescence, with the more pronounced dimorphism appearing with puberty. More research is needed as always, but it's something that encourages a "watchful waiting" approach, rather than an "affirmative approach".

Where does it say that? The abstract says the prevalence of gender non -content was drops from 11% to 4% in the general population?

Transgender people without dysphoria do not need hormones or gender confirmation surgery, so such adolescents aren’t really the source of gender critical concerns

Well they are if society is expected to treat them as literally women ( when they are male) or literally men ( when they are female), in all and every circumstance.

I was happy to call TW she/ her when there was an understanding that was a polite fiction. I am no longer happy to do it when t”she/ her is meant to represent a literal truth. Because that has real world consequences for women’s spaces/ safety/ dignity and sport

I won’t be showing my dc this, they love nothing more than telling me how most people that transition do not change their minds and that she will always want to be a he. She’s 20 but very young for her age (autistic), I try not to mention it at all as she seems to be able to talk about it non stop once mentioned, as most people with autism they can fixate on things for a long time. I would like to think she would grow out of it but the older she gets the more unlikely it is to happen.

@heathspeedwell even if you buy into the incorrect idea that this study is looking at kids with gender dysphoria, the vast majority, in fact, do not desist. It was the opposite. 80% still had “gender non-contentedness” at age 25.