Dutch study proves kids grow out of gender dysphoria

Given that this study was started 15 years ago, it wont be representative of the current cohort of gender confused young people, many of whom have been exposed to a lot more social contagion than existed back in 2009.

Yes specifically the idea that it’s a life style thing if you’re bored of being ‘straight’ and ‘cis’ rather than a fairly rare medical diagnosis.

You'll have to explain why it does not answer the question.

You'll also have to provide quotes as to where I said those with gender dysphoria should be medically transitioned.

All you are doing at the moment is making assertions without providing any evidence or argument.

I am eating then out soon though, so may not be back to answer today.

Exactly. And this is the point I'm making to @Nomorenomores . At no point to our knowledge has any 'trans healthcare provider' or TRA ever tried to make even the slightest distinction between gender dysphoria and gender discontentedness. Instead, the prevailing TRA narrative has been that any passing sign of dissatisfaction with one's gender means that one is probably trans. So I don't know why there are some on this thread desperately trying to split hairs now.

And that's even before we get onto the fact that there are no externally observable or patient-reported symptoms of gender 'dysphoria' that don't rely on meaningless and made-up stereotypes.

We've got all kinds of charities and accounts on social media at the moment telling kids that if they think they might be trans then they probably are trans.

Given that this study was started 15 years ago, it wont be representative of the current cohort of gender confused young people, many of whom have been exposed to a lot more social contagion than existed back in 2009.

It's not unreasonable to surmise that desistance levels for the today's teens could be even higher.

Didn't the doctor who came up with the Dutch Protocol of affirmation state that she never intended it to be applied to the current cohort of young people with rapid onset gender dysphoria?

Firstly, I have already answered this What is the difference between 'wishing one were the opposite sex' and 'feeling as though one is the opposite sex'?I also refer you to@Fieldofgreycorn's answer.

Nope, that doesn't answer the question.

I think I've characterised your stance quite well. Do let me know exactly where I've got it wrong, though.

A link to the paper was given earlier in the thread. It's open access so you can read the whole thing. Better than reading a news article.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-024-02817-5

In fact the Daily Mail could be making it worse because in their headline they’re calling all these examples ‘trans’!

Yes the daily mail have of course put their own slant (understatement) on it and misrepresented the study. Not helpful.

Particularly as there will still be a diagnosis of gender dysphoria for some. Although we know most of them desist as well.

By god, the layers of (erroneous) interpretation you have put on what I said are staggering.

Firstly, I have already answered this What is the difference between 'wishing one were the opposite sex' and 'feeling as though one is the opposite sex'? I also refer you to @Fieldofgreycorn's answer.

Because according to you, one is transitory and one is worthy of medical intervention Nope, never said this. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else? Or perhaps, simply because I am prepared to disagree with some of the things my 'own' side say and challenge them, you have made a whole bunch of assumptions about who I am actually am and what I think?

This.

I've not clicked on the link, given my views on the said newspaper.

The result of the study does not surprise me though. As does the point that being different (tomboys for example) should not lead to an encouragement to claim gender dysphoria.

What is the difference between 'wishing one were the opposite sex' and 'feeling as though one is the opposite sex'?

Because according to you, one is transitory and one is worthy of medical intervention.

So what's the difference, and why is one meriting a diagnosis and the other not?

I contend there is no difference, and that gender dysphoria per se is a non-existent condition. Interested in your view.

Precisely this.

Which is why dismissing the significance of this study on the basis that it is not a study of those diagnosed with gender dysphoria is to downplay it.

In the climate we've been in children have been actively encouraged to self identify as being gender dysphoric/ trans on the basis of not conforming to rigid sex based stereotype.

Sure, but this study is not even going this far. There is no self reported, ' feeling like the opposite sex', for example. All this study is doing is asked people if they wish they were the opposite sex, and then answering with a Likert scale on frequency. This means children who do not have feelings of being the opposite sex, but wish they could be because they like the stuff kids of the opposite sex do, or they think the opposite sex has an easier ride, could answer in the affirmative. But these children could still have no sense of a 'trans identity'.

This study is not really seeking to discriminate between types of gender discontent ( other than in a simple scale of frequency) and we should not add layers of interpretation onto it, as if it did. Nor should we feel entitled to change the words the authors are using for what they are studying.

Yes, agree. The study is useful in that it indicates a degree of unhappiness with one’s gender is often a normal part of adolescence.

However, a girl that expresses gender non-contentedness, today, is encouraged by many, on social media and in real life, to self-diagnose as gender dysphoric, and is told that transition is the only pathway to relieve gender non-contentedness. This, in my way, can solidify a self-identification, where more neutral information would have left the situation more fluid.

The study may be useful in its own right but it did not study gender dysphoria or gender identity. The authors distinguish between a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and what they looked at which is gender non-contentedness:

To illustrate the relation between these concepts; a young adolescent girl who mostly likes things seen as typical for boys and who dislikes the changes she goes through during puberty, might (temporarily) experience gender non-contentedness, although she might not experience gender dysphoria or wish to transition from female to male.

Problem is that there is no agreed diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. No, not even in the hallowed DSM V (which is used more in the US than the UK, and is compiled under the influence of a LOT of pharmceutical company lobbying).

The main criterion is entirely self-reported: the patient "feels that they should be a member of the opposite sex".

This is problematic for a number of reasons:

1. The diagnosis must be entirely based on self-reported symptoms which is not the case for the vast majority of psychiatric illnesses where there are also externally empirical markers which the doctors can observe e.g. weight loss at least 15% below expected range (anorexia, DSM V); limited or flat affect, observed dysfunction in daily life (clinical depression, DSM V); Russell's Sign (bulimia nervosa, DSM V).
2. In the UK and also in the US, there are many cases where the diagnosis of gender dysphoria was not made by a psychiatrist but by some allied health or social care professional - but, scandalously, hormonal treatment still followed! Totally unacceptable from a regulatory POV.
3. The self-reported "feeling like a member of the opposite sex" relies, in DSM V, on outdated stereotypes which lack evidence e.g. liking pink more than blue toys, liking knitting more than football. Meaningless.
4. The diagnostic criteria in DSM V are too wide and do not properly link to known comorbidities like autism

Basically, all the signs are that it's a made up disorder which is really actually a symptom of body dysmorphia. And only made its way into DMS V under massive lobbying from pharma companies who've been making bank from PBs and hormones. It's the opposite of that dreadful phrase, "trusting the science".

However, the OP is not one of the study's authors, and is perfectly entitled to use dysphoria in a more general sense

As for this, well! That's not really justifiable when she is using it to refer to a study which is deliberately not using that term itself for what it is studying. That is surely common sense.

Using words to have a different meaning from that which others use it for, and thinking you are entitled to do so, is surely what trans activists have done with the words ' woman' and 'man'. That's not a path we want to do down.

No it doesn't.

The study does not focus on or identify children with GD. Some children with GD may be included in the ' gender discomfort' population, but we can't say this with certainty, let alone know how many there are or whether these children are the ones who cease having gender discomfort.

Its entirely theoretically possible that the cohort of children who not desist in their feelings of gender discomfort are entirely composed of all the children in the study who would meet the criteria for a diagnosis of GD. However, we will can never know this as the study did not attempt to identify children with GD in particular.

I know of 2 Dutch children who had a trans/ gender identity situation. Both girls, one late primary the other secondary.

Both schools were very very supportive of their trans identity ( as were class mates and definitely one set of parents) After about a year, both realised that they weren’t trans. One was a lesbian, the other not. Both have now embraced their biological sex, and put the episode behind them ( one very actively by change school/ friendship group).

of course this is anecdotal, and neither have reached 25, so won’t be in the study, but this was an especially interesting study for me, given what I have seen from these children, thanks for sharing.

I think some posters are being very theoretical in their approach to this issue.

Regardless of diagnosis of gender dysphoria there have been pushes to 'trans' children by the activists which is why we have seen social transitioning in schools etc.

My personal experience is that there has been a push to signpost children to gender services. My daughter is autistic and has mental health issues arising from her autism so she is under the care of CAMHS, a couple of years ago (pre-puberty) she had an appointment at which the mental health nurse was trying to explore gender with her just because she turned up wearing boys clothes! She hadn't said she felt like a boy / non binary or whatever, he'd just made assumptions based on stereotypes.

I know for a fact in our area most of my daughters autistic peers now identify as boys or non- binary. It's a bloody disgrace. Their parents were desperate to get help for their daughters and are not going to disagree with mental health professionals who lead them into thinking that trans identification will solve all of their problems.

My daughter has now outgrown her gender non-conformity post puberty.

I'm not sure any child who has been referred to clinics in the UK wouldn't meet the DSM V criteria for gender dysphoria. We wouldn't send children to the clinics just on the basis that they play with the wrong toys would we?

Anyway it's all a fine mess and families have been caught up in it. Heads should roll really for putting children on these harmful pathways.

The OP said:* *A 15 year long dutch study has shown that gender dysphoria is temporary in most kids, I'm wondering how the activists will try and explain it

The study does show that. What is does not show is that dysphoria is temporary in most kids with a diagnosis of dysphoria according to DSM V. And the study did not confine itself to children who met the DSM V threshold for gender dysphoria but also included children with less pronounced unhappiness with gender. This is clearly why the authors used the more catch-all term of gender non-contentedness.

However, the OP is not one of the study's authors, and is perfectly entitled to use dysphoria in a more general sense.

Well lets hope a mixture of this and the Cass review puts a halt to the medicalisation of children and the social transitioning of children in schools.

Anyone who supports the concept of medicalising the 'trans child' is a monster in my honest opinion.

No one's body is wrong, what an awful thing to teach children.