Woman's hour 2nd April 2024 JKR's 'hate' thread

What rights has JKR suggested should be removed from these men?

She means “male people like this”. She has listed male people who are dangerous/bad/have taken jobs that are for women, and used them as examples to illustrate why all male people should be kept out of women’s spaces/sports/jobs and awards reserved for women as this is damaging to women’s safety, dignity, and interests.

However, the only men who routinely assume that they are entitled to access women’s spaces, sports and jobs are trans women, and so this is where the problem lies - the insistence that biological women must join in with the immersive fiction of these men that they are somehow really women, even if that puts us in danger, ruins our privacy and dignity, trashes our sporting chances and destroys our representation in places such as the UN.

@DadJoke TW ARE men.

And the R4 Katie chap: trying on your sister’s knickers aged four is not what makes anyone female.

We know that gender critical feminists think trans women are men. We also know what gender critical feminists think a man is, and what they think a woman is.

We know that you and others think trans women are women. What we don't know is that you think a woman is and what you think a man is.

I don’t think Jonny Dymond was really expecting that, but he coped rather well. He is quite TWAW though, as I recall.

Weird to keep bringing race into it, given what is on the record about some of those have said on this in JKR's thread. All it does is focus attention back on the words used by the men she's highlighting.

If you can't see the whole thread as you're not on Twitter (and they only let you see one post now), then it's all in the one post here. The Telegraph seems to have put on quite the spread:

x.com/carolinefff/status/1775086385642295386?s=46&t=WHoOZ_3Kv5G6-FyQuvE0LQ

Unless, of course, the word "man" is an obscenity and a slur.

Is anyone else bored to tears with the blunt tool approach of the word “hate” (it should be “hatred”) to cover: difference of opinion/disagreement/mildly different stance/offend/abuse/argue/discuss and anything else on the spectrum of agreeing and disagreeing? It’s not “hatred” to have a difference of opinion. It’s not “hatred” to state a biological fact that some people choose to ignore because it makes their argument illogical.

It's good to know that books like that are still about.

I see the narcissistic supply dispensary has re-opened after the Easter break.

DadJoke I can see we're not going to agree. And that's okay! Some of my well loved friends and colleagues would agree with you on this rather than me.

Tell you what, I won't report you for a hate incident if you don't report me 😉

Really good question. How is a medically healthy body "wrong" ?

In terms of sports, this is the relevant piece of legislation from the EQA 2010 -

614. This section allows separate sporting competitions to continue to be organised for men and women where physical strength, stamina or physique are major factors in determining success or failure, and in which one sex is generally at a disadvantage in comparison with the other. It also makes it lawful to restrict participation of transsexual people in such competitions if this is necessary to uphold fair or safe competition, but not otherwise.'

Please note that it relates not to 'how people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment are treated' but in ensuring fair and safe competition where one sex is generally at a disadvantage in comparison to the other.

The fact that it doesn't even dawn on "knickerman" that "borrowing" his sister' underwear (getting caught and having to return them, so "not a theft") isn't normal behaviour in any way shape or form is very telling.

I wonder whether some key personnel at R4 are on holiday at the moment; it really does feel as that way. Today, Womens' Hour, WATO.... I wonder who they've lined up for PM tonight?

They might even get round to mention the WPATH files this week at this rate.

Correctly identifying someone’s sex isn’t hatred HTH

I used to have a book many years ago when I was about 10 - Boys Big Bumper Book of Things To Do (or something like that) and it had lots of advice on invisible writing, secret codes, surviving in the wild by catching squirrels and cooking them over a campfire etc.*

Perhaps not the same, but I remember when I was little, my parents bought me this. Despite the rather sad title, it's pretty good, and I loved it. Pleased to see it's still in print.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Nothing-Nobody-Alone-Yourself/dp/0982053959

Agree. It’s not possible to compare the two because they are not the same things. Stating the fact that water boils at 100 degrees is not the same as asserting your opinion that the water used in your cup of coffee doesn’t feel hot enough to have boiled.

The right to be protected, like religious people, gay people and people of colour, from hate crimes. It's strange that it's only the protections against hatred for transgender people to which she is objecting.

I'm getting Danielle Muscato vibes.

This might not be the answer you are looking for, but I agree with the provisions in the EqA which allow sporting bodies to decide on how people with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment are treated. I might disagree with their approach in specific cases, but I think the law as it stands is reasonable.

Trans women ARE men. If they were women, they wouldn’t need to call themselves “trans women”.

we all know that gender critical people think trans women are men, and that they wish to be free to say that. In the same way, many churches preach in their churches that gay sex is always a sin.

They’re not remotely the same. Transwomen are biologically and materially men. Sin is an abstract concept. Saying that a transwoman is a man is a fact. Saying that gay sex is a sin is an opinion based on an unsubstantiated belief.

So tiresome.

Terven - Try envisaging what you think @DadJoke might look like.

Nowadays when I'm tempted to respond to him I call his "image" up in my mind's eye - it's not a flattering picture.

No way am I going to get involved, even online.

@DisappearingGirl we all know that gender critical people think trans women are men, and that they wish to be free to say that. In the same way, many churches preach in their churches that gay sex is always a sin. They can do so, and whether it's hate speech depends on context.

There is a big difference between saying transwomen are men (which is simply a biological fact) and saying that something is a sin (which is a value judgement based on a religious belief in a deity for whose existence there is not a shred of proof).

Quite. One person’s “misgendering” is another person’s truth.