Julie Burchill on class

I think that in writing about her own experience Julie Burchill she hasn't really reflected that her experience was very much a product of that time.

ie post WWII after the attempts to get the UK back to what it had been before WWII ie class and sex rules re-establilshed not only failed but promoted a backlash. ie women resented being told to go back to the kitchen (the main spring for what became WLM) and working class people had been expected to take up roles and responsibilities to help the war effort, weren't going to be told to go back to their traditional roles of just obeying orders.

The media may have been the sphere where the voices and experience of the working class were most obvious in late 50s early 60s, but in them becoming icons it spelt the end of their prominance. So for young people growing up during that time who aspired to be like them, found that as has ever been the case, having middle class or even upper class links gave them a head start.

And inevitably those who were sucessful became as it were "middle class". So the class order re-established itself.

ie the middle class stays entrenched but has fads when it promotes outsiders, once it was the working class, then it was women, then Black people and now ... trans / queer?

Also not sure how you define working class now. Partly because the communities that fostered a sense of being part of that class and having its own values and role models have been and are being destoyed by gentrification. Many of the jobs that were traditionally thought of as working class dont exist any more ie even if low paid, at least jobs with contracts or through the apprentice system something you could count on through your life. Now low paid jobs are all short term contracts or worse, and are as likely to be done by members of other communites, ie Eastern European, Bangladeshi.

One place that maybe what is still the working class now have an opportunity is reality shows, some of which I am sure the producers thought would make the participants objects of ridicule, but have become aspirational??

(I think this is a more urban reflection, and am not sure that what has / is happening in the countryside is the same.)

Art should not simply be commercial. Otherwise we end up with little great art.

Commercial art makes sense- someone wants a thing, they can pay someone to make it. Someone makes something amazing- everyone can bid for it.

It makes sense as well for the artist to maintain ownership a proportion of It, so they benefit when the value shoots up. Royalties as well, obviously.

I’m not fussed about the government paying people to be artists, rather than buying the product. Patrons, I suppose.

I can’t get sentimental about this - she seems to care more about the exceptions who broke through class barriers (to become artists, pop-stars or whatever) rather than the general condition of working class people.

Does Julie Burchill actually do anything to support working class female journalists herself? You know, mentoring or providing training, supporting a charity or perhaps endowing a scholarship…Or perhaps she would be better off quitting journalism and signing up to ‘NowTeach’?

When she has spent as much time as the average state-school teacher trying to support working class children then I will take her a bit more seriously.

On a total side note, I went to see Lee Hurst many many years ago. He was absolutely terrible. His whole shtick was taking the p*ss out of the audience ( he didn’t seem to have a routine). He spent a good 15 minutes laughing at my flat mate, end I realised that I could do it so much better him. Vowed never to pay money to see him again. Had totally forgotten about him till this thread.

i would say he was not getting work years ago because he was not very good.

@ArabellaScott he's not barred from being a comedian. He runs his own comedy club. Google suggests he stopped doing television to focus on traditional standup before the assault conviction and the creeping over Greta Thunberg anyway.

"In 2000, Lee decided to semi-retire and concentrate on running his comedy venue, the Backyard Comedy Club, acting as resident compere. In 2010, Lee closed this club and razed it to the ground. In its place Lee developed a seven storey hotel, on the ground floor of which is the new Backyard Bar & Kitchen, home of the Backyard Comedy Club."

JB touches on this in the article but one issue is that a lot of these things- acting, singing, even professional sport were looked down upon in virtually all societies throughout history. Fifty years before the 1950s, the popular entertainment of the time was Music Hall, and virtually all of its stars were working class. In the 1950s football still had a maximum wage and the idea of playing sport for money was seen as infra dig. Now these things are fashionable they have naturally been colonized by the moneyed (except football perhaps), all through history the already wealthy have seized the best opportunities.
Another thing is that access to training is harder- my brother and I went to Grammar School and they were modelled after public schools, with a variety of arts and sports offered. How many children at state schools now get a chance to try cricket or act in regular school plays? When you were an adult, every large factory in town had a sports and social club with sports teams, amateur dramatics, bands, music etc. how many employers offer that now?

What helped working class people get into arts and entertainment in the 70s and early 80s was ironically high unemployment. Youth unemployment was so high that it was easy to sign on. So many working class people interested in developing arts or music did so for a few years while they developed their skills. It acted as an informal space for people to develop and then move onto paid work in the arts or entertainment industry. It is much harder to do if you have to work full time in a tiring job and then come home and do some art.

@pickledandpuzzled when you say paid-for art -do you mean art that is supported by government subsidy, or art that is paid for commercially?

If the former - there are good arguments for and against government subsidy of the arts. I do baulk at the amount of government money that goes into things like opera when grassroots music venues get nothing.

But the idea that artists should not earn a living from their art is bizarre to say the least!

Such a good article, she really nails something I've been wondering for a long time.

I imagine the Irish referendum results were a big shock to the political class and their client NGOs who simply hadn't noticed how many people didn't agree with them.

Once art is paid for, is it even art?

As someone who works in art and design I can assure you we definitely need to be paid 😂

Disclaimer- never studied art or politics so this has probably all be thrashed out already 🤣

I don’t know that I approve of state sponsored art, to be honest. Art and music used to thrive in mining villages as an escape from the drudgery of daily life.

Once art is paid for, is it even art?

Professional art… might be a contradiction. Should be driven by love and talent, not money. Then inevitably those who don’t need to spend time earning money will get to do more art. But it will be soft art with little to say, though universal human experience will always be reflected I suppose.

Ah yes, that was it. I knew I'd read something unpleasant about him 😳🤢

Yes, implying that he could cure Greta Thunberg of her silly notions with his magic 60 year old cock was a bit too much, even for ITV. Maybe GB News will snap him up.

I wasn't aware of his convictions, probably not the best example then!

I think his convictions for assault and his sexual harassment of an 18 year old on Twitter might have more to do with it.

I agree in my lifetime (54) I feel I've seen culture become more homogeneous while simultaneously becoming more 'diverse' which is quite bizarre.

On one hand I agree, there is a lot of similarly in comedy re: politics, social commentary etc partly because those voices are loudest and partly because those who disagree just keep quiet. But on the other hand isny Lee Hurst a bit odd? I can't remember what he's done/said but I seem to recall he had some extreme views.

However there is also Geoff Norcott who differs from most comedians in that he votes Conservative and uses that very well as part of his act.

Ive also noticed this in Comedy where those who don't have the same political beliefs or education are black listed from TV such as Lee Hurst

This is what bothered me.

So many of Britain’s best artists (all forms) were from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.

Both Toria and Mike Garry mentioned working in prisons, I believe the arts can do a lot of good within institutions (not just prisons but hospitals, schools, mental health facilities etc) but you do need the visiting artist to be able to connect with the prisoners/patients/students.

My daughter’s mostly non-white inner city girls high school recently had a visit from a white, middle class YouTube rapper. The girls did not take him seriously at all!

No-one knows. However working class people seem very well represented in media with much lower barriers to entry: just look at TikTok and Instagram influencers and creators. The fact that they are not well represented in niche cultural activities such as journalism and theatre may not actually matter.

And while traditional pop music seems to now be the preserve of the well-spoken, underground music, which arguably is more culturally relevant and influential than commercial pop, has an extremely low barrier to entry - an old laptop and a hooky copy of Ableton Live gives you access to stuff that would have required seriously expensive studio time 20 years ago. It's no surprise that electronic music remains firmly working class.

Journalism - it's a dying profession that pays peanuts. Local newspapers, which were the traditional way in, have all but disappeared. Not something you would touch with a bargepole unless you had family money.

Pop music - the traditional working class route was a couple of years spent at (free) art college setting up a band, and in the 80s (ab)using the Enterprise Allowance Scheme - often while double-dipping the dole and living in a squat. All these routes are closed now which is why so many pop musicians are music college-educated and middle class. It also (like classical music) pays absolutely peanuts for the vast majority of artists so hardly an attractive career, especially as now to have even a chance you will likely need 3 years of expensive music college.

Arts/theatre - free colleges and heavily funded community schemes and theatres. All gone.

As an aside, Joe Orton took elocution lessons before applying to RADA.