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LoobiJee · 01/04/2024 20:25

upthehill24 · 01/04/2024 17:58

Indeed. The thread is necessary, but the title is incorrect. The man is not a "trans" judge. Nobody can 'transition'. He is a 'Y chromosome-having' man who was once appointed a judge, and who was indulged and allowed to act out his s x fetish/ fantasy of "being a woman", in public, and in court.

I think your post will most likely get deleted but, before it does, just wanted to say that the thread title comes from the title of the Guardian article.

OP posts:
upthehill24 · 01/04/2024 17:58

RethinkingLife · 01/04/2024 14:42

Ah, the Sacred Caste carapace that exempts you from Nolan and all other guidance.

Mea culpa.

Indeed. The thread is necessary, but the title is incorrect. The man is not a "trans" judge. Nobody can 'transition'. He is a 'Y chromosome-having' man who was once appointed a judge, and who was indulged and allowed to act out his s x fetish/ fantasy of "being a woman", in public, and in court.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/04/2024 16:45

Have you seen that Family Guy sketch at the bar? It's so true, but I picked this dissenting source because it amused me.

https://www.out.com/television/2019/10/07/family-guy-still-just-transphobic-ever

"Thus, if a trans woman was actually caught watching porn in a public place, or even if she was caught doing it in many private places, she'd definitely be locked up without a second thought."

Oh, defo.

LoobiJee · 01/04/2024 14:52

RethinkingLife · 01/04/2024 14:42

Ah, the Sacred Caste carapace that exempts you from Nolan and all other guidance.

Mea culpa.

I initially misread that as car space! 🤭

Can you imagine? Everyone would be identifying into a category that gave you a parking space! 😅

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/04/2024 14:45

RethinkingLife · 01/04/2024 14:42

Ah, the Sacred Caste carapace that exempts you from Nolan and all other guidance.

Mea culpa.

Yup. Had the word no been used at an earlier stage when men started to decide they were now women, that women had no right to boundaries or safety from random men, we might not be here.

RethinkingLife · 01/04/2024 14:42

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/04/2024 14:38

McCloud got a lot of support and fawning on Twitter when McCloud announced that McCloud was resigning due to women being mean. Women like Sarah Phillimore were heavily criticised by lots of people in the legal community for complaining about McCloud's actions to the regulator. So I think McCloud thinks they have carte blanche to do whatever.

Ah, the Sacred Caste carapace that exempts you from Nolan and all other guidance.

Mea culpa.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/04/2024 14:38

McCloud got a lot of support and fawning on Twitter when McCloud announced that McCloud was resigning due to women being mean. Women like Sarah Phillimore were heavily criticised by lots of people in the legal community for complaining about McCloud's actions to the regulator. So I think McCloud thinks they have carte blanche to do whatever.

RethinkingLife · 01/04/2024 14:33

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/04/2024 14:18

McCloud is daring someone to do something about it, I think.

At a loss for what. IANAL but I'm not seeing this as comparable to the BSB's recent refusal to take action against Sarah P.

McCloud is a judge and soliciting political donations. I know it's only little people like me that take Nolan seriously but Nolan exists and judges have strictures on their public actions that extend beyond Nolan.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 01/04/2024 14:18

McCloud is daring someone to do something about it, I think.

RethinkingLife · 01/04/2024 13:13

McCloud's latest interesting interpretation of permissible political activity by a judge.

Anya Palmer: Just a full time judge openly posting campaigning material on social media and soliciting donations to a political crowdfunder, despite all restrictions on political activity by judges, apparently in reliance on Article 10 ECHR. Maybe check the limitations in Article 10(2)?

https://twitter.com/anyabike/status/1774575453673497006

Transgender Judge Seeks Leave To Intervene in FWS Case re Legal Definition of Woman
ArabellaScott · 30/03/2024 09:02

See.my thread on males who harass women being 'low status' within the male hierarchy. It might explain some of it.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 30/03/2024 08:54

literalviolence · 30/03/2024 08:00

It seems clear that clarifying what sex means in EA better protects the rights of females including those who identify as TM. If a male sees that as a bad thing, then we're just seeing the privileged trying to hang onto their unearned power.

I previously mentioned (on an antisemitism thread) a man whom I knew many years ago who totally genuinely believed that women rule the world, despite me incredulously pointing out the evidence of their oppression and suffering. He later transitioned.

Maybe this sort of attitude might explain why they don't feel utterly ashamed at taking rights away from the more vulnerable sex.

ArabellaScott · 30/03/2024 08:30

literalviolence · 30/03/2024 08:00

It seems clear that clarifying what sex means in EA better protects the rights of females including those who identify as TM. If a male sees that as a bad thing, then we're just seeing the privileged trying to hang onto their unearned power.

Yep. The males have to have it all.

literalviolence · 30/03/2024 08:00

It seems clear that clarifying what sex means in EA better protects the rights of females including those who identify as TM. If a male sees that as a bad thing, then we're just seeing the privileged trying to hang onto their unearned power.

SaffronSpice · 29/03/2024 20:55

GreenUp · 29/03/2024 19:52

When the EHRC provided guidance to Kemi Badenoch about the positive and negative consequences of changing the definition of sex in the Equality Act to biological sex, they outlined 3 potential disadvantages, the first of which I think would be the basis of the Judge's argument.

The change would be more ambiguous or potentially disadvantageous in three areas.

• Equal pay provisions. At present, a trans woman with a GRC can bring an equal pay claim by citing a legally male comparator who was paid more. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer this right from some trans women to some trans men.

• Direct sex discrimination. At present, a trans woman with a GRC can bring a claim of direct sex discrimination as a woman. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer the right from some trans women to some trans men.

• Indirect sex discrimination. At present, a trans woman with a GRC could bring a claim of indirect discrimination as a woman. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer this right from some trans women to some trans men.

https://dev.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/2023/letter-to-mfwe-definition-of-sex-in-ea-210-3-april-2023_0.pdf

In other words, by clarifying sex on the basis of biological sex, people would be protected based on their sex. Why is that a drawback?

theilltemperedclavecinist · 29/03/2024 20:10

GreenUp · 29/03/2024 19:52

When the EHRC provided guidance to Kemi Badenoch about the positive and negative consequences of changing the definition of sex in the Equality Act to biological sex, they outlined 3 potential disadvantages, the first of which I think would be the basis of the Judge's argument.

The change would be more ambiguous or potentially disadvantageous in three areas.

• Equal pay provisions. At present, a trans woman with a GRC can bring an equal pay claim by citing a legally male comparator who was paid more. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer this right from some trans women to some trans men.

• Direct sex discrimination. At present, a trans woman with a GRC can bring a claim of direct sex discrimination as a woman. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer the right from some trans women to some trans men.

• Indirect sex discrimination. At present, a trans woman with a GRC could bring a claim of indirect discrimination as a woman. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer this right from some trans women to some trans men.

https://dev.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/2023/letter-to-mfwe-definition-of-sex-in-ea-210-3-april-2023_0.pdf

A transfer of rights from transwomen to transmen?

A plan with no drawbacks!

GreenUp · 29/03/2024 19:52

When the EHRC provided guidance to Kemi Badenoch about the positive and negative consequences of changing the definition of sex in the Equality Act to biological sex, they outlined 3 potential disadvantages, the first of which I think would be the basis of the Judge's argument.

The change would be more ambiguous or potentially disadvantageous in three areas.

• Equal pay provisions. At present, a trans woman with a GRC can bring an equal pay claim by citing a legally male comparator who was paid more. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer this right from some trans women to some trans men.

• Direct sex discrimination. At present, a trans woman with a GRC can bring a claim of direct sex discrimination as a woman. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer the right from some trans women to some trans men.

• Indirect sex discrimination. At present, a trans woman with a GRC could bring a claim of indirect discrimination as a woman. A trans man with a GRC could not. The proposed biological definition would reverse this situation. The effect would be to transfer this right from some trans women to some trans men.

https://dev.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/2023/letter-to-mfwe-definition-of-sex-in-ea-210-3-april-2023_0.pdf

wincarwoo · 29/03/2024 10:50

McCloud has no interest in anyone else except themselves. Every point they make is related back to their own situation.

Snowypeaks · 29/03/2024 10:35

Imagine the howls of outrage if non-trans people claimed those places.

Tsk, tsk. "Non-normative trans", please. 😉

SabrinaThwaite · 29/03/2024 10:32

yes, trans are disadvantaged too, you can give them their own shortlist if you like, proportionate to prevalence in population

An all trans shortlist would be interesting.

Given that nobody needs to undergo any medical or surgical treatment and you only have to propose to undergo a process to reassign your sex - anyone can claim to be trans?

Imagine the howls of outrage if non-trans people claimed those places.

MarkWithaC · 29/03/2024 10:31

DadJoke · 29/03/2024 00:56

@theilltemperedclavecinist yes, I broadly agree with this interpretation, but it would be useful to get some clarity, which is why I am in favour of this case. It seems reasonable to me that a women’s shortlist should include trans women, and it’s reasonable there might be exceptions.

Can you say why it seems reasonable to you that a man who identifies as a woman should be on a woman's shortlist?

Snowypeaks · 29/03/2024 10:21

theilltemperedclavecinist · 29/03/2024 09:36

I suppose it could, just, have happened in the Birmingham Council case (where the male binmen were illegally paid more than the female dinnerladies and cleaners, for equally tedious work). I like to think that a transwoman working in the kitchen - particularly if too puny for hefting bins - would have benefited.

Of course there's a wider problem that 'women's work' is undervalued, so men who choose to do it, whether trans or not, are also undervalued. But we can't be solving all of the problems all of the time...

This sounds like a case of indirect discrimination, so a man claiming to be a woman working as a dinner server for Birmingham Council would definitely have benefited. Any man working as a dinner server would (in theory) have been paid the same as the women. The work being held to be of equal value to the binmen's work meant that although women could be binmen, in practice they worked as dinnerladies and cleaners so the job of cleaner/dinnerlady being unfairly underpaid would impact women more than men. The job itself pays more now so anyone doing the job, male or female, gets an uplift and (I assume) backdated pay.

If it was a case of direct discrimination, then women in the same job, or substantially the same job, as men would have been paid less. So that would have been a case of women working on the bins being paid less than the binmen or men working as dinner servers or cleaners being paid less than the dinnerladies or women cleaners (hollow laugh).

literalviolence · 29/03/2024 10:17

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/03/2024 10:11

Great post that bears repeating.

That peaking and fury is evident if you read the hundreds of thousands of comments just on the Times & Telegraph sites. Men and women furious at all this and fully cognisant of the range of outrages - legal, criminal and ethical.
It always amuses me that the small number of anti women posters spend so much time on here looking for opportunities to repeat a bit of propaganda or spout their own half baked notions, bumping threads like this that allow knowledgable women to clarify complex issues.
The same thing is happening x10000 elsewhere yet they're somehow obsessed with the mummies & women on here. 😂

Everytìme someone states that a male should be on an almost women short list or in any woman's space, they do a lot of pro women work because most people see that for the oppression and hate that it is.

literalviolence · 29/03/2024 10:16

DadJoke · 29/03/2024 00:56

@theilltemperedclavecinist yes, I broadly agree with this interpretation, but it would be useful to get some clarity, which is why I am in favour of this case. It seems reasonable to me that a women’s shortlist should include trans women, and it’s reasonable there might be exceptions.

It couldn't be a woman's short list if it had a male on it. TW have no similarities with women so the discrimination they face has nothing to do with sex based discrimination
TW are not women and never will be. It would be a vile act of misogyny to allow a male onto a (alleged) all women short list.

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