Page 2 | Leaving Kindland

IcakethereforeIam · 2024-03-26T11:28:21+00:00

I read this article in the Critic and enjoyed it. Perhaps it doesn't deserve its own thread but....well here we are. [[https://thecritic.co.uk/leaving-kindland-entering-reality https://thecritic.co.uk/leaving-kindland-entering-reality/]] If anyone else might want to write why they left Kindland, if they never visited or, even, why they're still there, I think it'll be interesting. I think some insight into why people have taken different paths could be useful. Or a bloodbath. If you don't want to, I will apologise in advance, if you feel that is necessary, and kindly suggest just scroll on by and get on with your day😊. As for me. I have a clear memory of talking to my oldest, then quite young, about transpeople. All the reasons why someone might go down that path. I probably didn't have all the current buzzwords but we probably covered dsds, born in the wrong body, etc. I don't recall who instigated the conversation (why the fuck was I talking about such stuff to a primary aged child!!?) but i do remember feeling quite smug about how 'kind' I was being. I had no idea, how could I, of what lay in store. My next memory is of a similar conversation perhaps a year or so later. This time I remember voicing concern about bad people taking advantage. How to stop that while still being kind to 'genuine' tp. The next memory is crashing into MN. How I got here, I can't remember but I'm glad I found FWR. I wish I could go back and get ahead of it, educate my kids before they were indoctrinated by kindness. And I'm lucky, so far, neither have adopted a trans identity requiring drugs, hormones or surgery.

Justnot · 28/03/2024 10:58

I was a little bit in Kindland, but when I saw a bloke with a beard trolling a US anti trans activist by taking her name, attacking Julie Bindel and all the reporting was that they were a woman I thought fuck that

no idea if an alarm goes off if I mention names ……..

Myalternate · 28/03/2024 10:15

I have a question although I’m sure I already know the answer…☹️

Will FWR still exist after 1st April ?

WaterWeasel · 28/03/2024 09:55

A woman is a female with any personality, not a type of personality in either-sex body

YES!

Crankywiddershins · 28/03/2024 09:47

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2024 09:13

Glad I got it right. I was really moved by your lack of self-justification and defensiveness, two things that I dislike in other people......and recognize in myself. As for admitting I got things wrong as bravely as you did? Hmmm. I'm working on it, a bit behind you there😏
💐

I think you're doing pretty good! And thanks for pointing out @StephanieSuperpowers incredible attitude! I'm much more of a hunker down and sulk girl myself! So it's great to be shown a better way.
Flowers 💐💐 for you both.

MarieDeGournay · 28/03/2024 09:13

Glad I got it right. I was really moved by your lack of self-justification and defensiveness, two things that I dislike in other people......and recognize in myself. As for admitting I got things wrong as bravely as you did? Hmmm. I'm working on it, a bit behind you there😏
💐

StephanieSuperpowers · 28/03/2024 08:12

Thanks, Marie, that's exactly what I meant! I'm grateful for it though and it's one of the reasons I reject the idea that we should all be nice and gentle in our critique of this stuff. Sometimes you need to say it straight and sometimes you need to hear it straight.

MarieDeGournay · 27/03/2024 21:15

StephanieSuperpowers · 27/03/2024 16:58

I was evicted in 2015. I was pregnant and came to mumsnet because that's a good place to engage with women of the mother kind, isn't it? And I kinded it up on a thread and got my arse absolutely handed to me. Deservedly. I was sore and angry about it at the time and quietly stopped responding but kept reading and eventually understood that I wasn't a really nice and enlightened being, fortunate to be so lovely and giving, what I was actually doing was enabling the worst possible outcomes for other women - and the little baby girl I was growing.

If I'm reading this post right - I'm not 100% sure I am - it is honest, brave and moving.
Not many people are prepared to say they deserved what they got, especially as they were seeking support not their arse handed to them. And to listen and change and come back...

If I'm reading you right, StephanieSuperpowers, here are 💐 from me.

DuesToTheDirt · 27/03/2024 20:53

StephanieSuperpowers · 27/03/2024 17:00

I object to cis because I'm just a woman, not a type of woman or a subset of the collective category of woman. There is only one kind of woman, biological human females. That's what I am. There is no other set.

Show quote history

Yes, this.

popebishop · 27/03/2024 19:09

"Cis" means you act, behave, think or have a general personality that "matches" having a female body.
The whole idea of this is hugely sexist (ditto for men).

A woman is a female with any personality, not a type of personality in either-sex body.

moderate · 27/03/2024 19:00

Crankywiddershins · 27/03/2024 16:46

@moderate "Most GC and GNC people are uncomfortable with their gender, i.e. with the expectations placed on them by society according to their sex. It's why we object to being called "cis"

That's an interesting point. I'd certainly like to hear more about why GC people object to cis. Perhaps a subject for another thread?

I've been told that if I'm not trans, then I must be cis.

That's like saying if I'm not Catholic, then I must be Protestant.

No! I'm an atheist. I reject the whole dogma.

(Sometimes I tell them I don't identify with my gender (i.e. the expectations placed upon me by society according to my sex) and they insist I must therefore be trans. So I tell them they now need to accept everything I say about trans issues. That's how it works, right?!)

Snowypeaks · 27/03/2024 18:56

Great thread, really interesting comments. I've never lived in Kindland (somehow I swerved all that female socialisation) so I have no story about leaving it.

Genderlessvoid and Crankywiddershins, all the SA survivors out there 💪❤💐

OceanicBoundlessness · 27/03/2024 18:45

It was the first time I heard the words Trans Women Are Women.
Until then I thought we were all making a polite pretence.
I couldn't twist my mind round actually seeing trans women as anything other than men pretending to be women and felt like a terrible person for a while for not being able to make that mental leap. It became much more comfortable to continue to believe in reality and I feel it's so much kinder to tell the truth, especially to young people.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/03/2024 18:25

Zeev · 27/03/2024 13:27

I left Kindland when my burly, 6'5" bearded STEM-career-climbing weightlifter then-husband decided he had always been a girl, and started dressing up in girl clothing (and I mean girl clothing. Not women's clothing. He was in his 50s.)

And everyone expected me to help him, to cheerlead him, to celebrate him finding his "true self" while his true self seemed to be someone who now watched sissy porn 24/7 and flashed his family members because his short skirt was "accidentally" too short. I talked about this with my closest friends, who told me I had cis privilege and that I should be more understanding, more kind. Because there isn't a more oppressed creature on this Earth than a trans woman.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

I think the problem is that if you take the "kind" view that trans people should be accepted for who they are and supported to live their best lives, it's difficult to square that point of view with acknowledging that by deciding to live their best life a trans person may have hurled a grenade of chaos and misery into the lives of their loved ones. Because in Kindland the trans person must be supported unconditionally, it's easier to dismiss their unsupportive spouse/family as transphobic than acknowledge the conflict that exists. I'm not sure why, because I think most women support gay rights but also understand that they would not be happy if their husband decided he were gay.

My friend's husband has recently come out as a trans woman. She is publicly very supportive but I worry about her mental health. I don't feel able to ask her how she really feels about it all, so I hope she is OK.

moderate · 27/03/2024 18:14

Zeev · 27/03/2024 13:27

I left Kindland when my burly, 6'5" bearded STEM-career-climbing weightlifter then-husband decided he had always been a girl, and started dressing up in girl clothing (and I mean girl clothing. Not women's clothing. He was in his 50s.)

And everyone expected me to help him, to cheerlead him, to celebrate him finding his "true self" while his true self seemed to be someone who now watched sissy porn 24/7 and flashed his family members because his short skirt was "accidentally" too short. I talked about this with my closest friends, who told me I had cis privilege and that I should be more understanding, more kind. Because there isn't a more oppressed creature on this Earth than a trans woman.

Christ on a bike. That sounds horrendous. I hope you've found better friends -- or managed to peak them.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 27/03/2024 18:10

Crankywiddershins · 27/03/2024 16:46

@moderate "Most GC and GNC people are uncomfortable with their gender, i.e. with the expectations placed on them by society according to their sex. It's why we object to being called "cis"

That's an interesting point. I'd certainly like to hear more about why GC people object to cis. Perhaps a subject for another thread?

For me there are essentially two reasons why I object to "cis".

Firstly it is based on the presumption that there are two types of women, the vast majority who were born female and a small minority who were born male, and that "women" is consequently a word for a mixed sex group of people who all share a gender identity. I don't agree with any of that at all, and don't want to use language or be referred to using language which implicitly includes this presumption.

Secondly, the distinction between cis women and trans women is frequently used to reframe the former as a privileged majority and the latter as an oppressed minority who need special protection. Given how genuinely oppressed and marginalised many women in the former category are, I find that argument grossly offensive.

Crankywiddershins · 27/03/2024 18:01

Thanks to those who responded to my question. All good answers! Personally I reject cis because there's already a perfect word to describe me... WOMAN no prefix necessary.

Snowypeaks · 27/03/2024 17:42

That's an interesting point. I'd certainly like to hear more about why GC people object to cis. Perhaps a subject for another thread?

Hi.
I also object to cs. In addition to the points made earlier...
Cs means that your gender identity aligns with your body. So by labelling me, the ideology purports to tell me how I think - that I accept for myself feminine gender stereotypes and more fundamentally, that I accept that I have a gender identity and subscribe to gender ideology. None of which is true and nobody outside my head can know what I believe, anyway.
Opposing c*s and trans is also linguistic sleight of hand, which turns me into an oppressor of the class of men claiming to be women.
And it's yet another example of the gender movement co-opting words for political purposes.

DarkForces · 27/03/2024 17:22

Try telling men that they're cis men now. My betting is that no one will ask them to justify saying no.

viques · 27/03/2024 17:19

StephanieSuperpowers · 27/03/2024 17:00

I object to cis because I'm just a woman, not a type of woman or a subset of the collective category of woman. There is only one kind of woman, biological human females. That's what I am. There is no other set.

Show quote history

Exactly this. No one has changed sex. If people want to pretend they have and call themselves transwomen or transmen then that is their choice if it makes them happy. They can then respect my choice, which is to be called what I am, woman, which makes me happy.

StephanieSuperpowers · 27/03/2024 17:00

Crankywiddershins · 27/03/2024 16:46

@moderate "Most GC and GNC people are uncomfortable with their gender, i.e. with the expectations placed on them by society according to their sex. It's why we object to being called "cis"

That's an interesting point. I'd certainly like to hear more about why GC people object to cis. Perhaps a subject for another thread?

I object to cis because I'm just a woman, not a type of woman or a subset of the collective category of woman. There is only one kind of woman, biological human females. That's what I am. There is no other set.

StephanieSuperpowers · 27/03/2024 16:58

I was evicted in 2015. I was pregnant and came to mumsnet because that's a good place to engage with women of the mother kind, isn't it? And I kinded it up on a thread and got my arse absolutely handed to me. Deservedly. I was sore and angry about it at the time and quietly stopped responding but kept reading and eventually understood that I wasn't a really nice and enlightened being, fortunate to be so lovely and giving, what I was actually doing was enabling the worst possible outcomes for other women - and the little baby girl I was growing.

Myalternate · 27/03/2024 16:57

That's an interesting point. I'd certainly like to hear more about why GC people object to cis. Perhaps a subject for another thread?

I’m sure others will answer for themselves but for me, being categorised as CIS is offensive. Transgender people have categorically not changed sex so there is absolutely no requirement to describe women as anything other than women.

ArabellaScott · 27/03/2024 16:54

Genderless

Crankywiddershins · 27/03/2024 16:46

@moderate "Most GC and GNC people are uncomfortable with their gender, i.e. with the expectations placed on them by society according to their sex. It's why we object to being called "cis"

That's an interesting point. I'd certainly like to hear more about why GC people object to cis. Perhaps a subject for another thread?

Crankywiddershins · 27/03/2024 16:41

GenderlessVoid · 27/03/2024 12:13

@Crankywiddershins@BettyFilous,

Thank you for your kind words. I'm sorry that there are so many of us.

I try to speak up when I can, especially now that the trans rights activists are trying to make sex irrelevant. As @moderate said, "if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism." You can't talk about your sexual abuse as abuse directed at women and girls bc of their female bodies.

It seems even worse than mansplaining what a woman is (which is probably the most ridiculous thing a man could explain to a woman).

I feel like I'm being silenced bc of my sex. If talking about my experiences as a girl/woman in a female body is not allowed/bigoted, how can I talk about the abuse I suffered bc of my sex - CSA, being told I was lesser, not being believed, being told that my abusers were more valuable than I would ever be, being told that I was a slut/whore bc of what men/boys had done to me, being told that my primary value was as a sex toy - all bc I was a female in a female body. Gender had nothing to do with it. But I can't talk about that bc it's invalidating to trans women. And somehow their discomfort is more important than my discomfort at being silenced or told that I'm a bad person for even mentioning it (which re-creates aspects of my abuse, which triggers my PTSD).

And, of course, I'm a bigot bc I have PTSD. It's ableist as hell but that doesn't matter either bc only trans pain counts (esp if it's a transwoman, funny how that works).

Edited

I'm so sorry all of those things happened to you. It really is a life sentence. As for how many of us are affected, I used to think it was incredibly rare, but now I know otherwise.
I hope you know that you are a survivor and that it's possible to thrive. I read somewhere that we become stronger in the broken places.
Much love and respect to you.