If you're a man, whatever you feel is what it feels like to be a man

As we all did...boundaries eh?

😂

Yes.

The difference between genderism and gender criticism is that genderism wants to reify those cultural constructs into something real and material that take the place of sex, solidifying them and thereby reducing individuality, while gender criticism wants to challenge them, reducing the degree to which they limit us. Genderism wants to make sure everyone can pick the right box, gender criticism asks why we have the boxes at all.

Honestly I wouldn't mind a social movement to promote what we currently consider to be just different personality types into self-identity groups with real social weight, accepted differences in need and potentially, legal protections. In many ways that's what's happening with neurodiversity right now. I don't necessarily think it's the right way to organise society wholesale but I think the conversation it would engender would likely bring many insights and improvements in how we support and relate to each other. (And I think the way TRAs have forced gender conversation into the only acceptible outcome being the incredibly narrow TWAW/TMAM no debate is an absolute tragedy exactly because it stopped that process of learning, exploring and evolving solutions from happening.)

I just don't think we should condone linking persoanality to sex (because whether gender is labelled cis or trans, it's still assuming that link to sex), which continues to exist and impact our lives especially if we are women regardless of how we personally identify, and I don't think we should be appropriating sex-based language, rights and supports into a system of gender identity.

How else would you define sex, other than biologically?

Are you referring to sex as in sexual intercourse, with all its variants and social and emotional ramifications?

The point is only that sex is rarely defined only in relation to biology, and I think this is where a lot of hotly contested ideas spring from. Nothing overly ouragous

When it comes to understanding the world around us, we have to try as hard we can to ignore our own views and see the world as it actually is.

Impossible.

OK, maybe not impossible, just very difficult. And often very important to recognise people's interpretation and understanding of reality.

Your body is you. You are not you without your body. You do not exist as a person without your body. You do not exist outside of your body. If your body changes you are still the same person, just in a body that has changed. If your character/tastes/moral compass change you are still the same person, just less or more likeable/less or more reliable etc.

If your body was an entirely different body you would be an entirely different person.

It helps if you read and process what I said correctly. I made no reference to my own views or concepts, and specifically asked people to exclude their own opinion and focus instead on our culture. You have no idea what I think on the subject, personally, because I haven't said anything about my own view. I'm not sure what it is myself 😂I'm too busy asking questions and exploring ideas

When it comes to understanding the world around us, we have to try as hard we can to ignore our own views and see the world as it actually is. There's always a gap between the values a society and individuals profess to believe and what their behaviour reveals, including ourselves. I'm frequently surprised how many people find this to be so hard

Feminism exists precisely because its a reaction against the culture within which it exists, and in any case it doesn't represent a single viewpoint anyways. Feminist views represent views that vary from "blank slate" or "gender is a construct" all the way up to what you consider to be stereotypes. There isn't such a thing as "feminists think x". Recently, I've taken an interest in epigenetics, and that has had me asking myself some interesting questions on the whole nature/nurture thing, because it has me wondering to what extent it can explain things that might otherwise appear full under nature

"... a person is more than their body ..."

That seems clearly true. It's wholly compatible with the fact that people are essentially embodied, though, isn't it? What do you think?

(You need to watch out for the Straw Man here. It's quite common: "No woman has a penis." ... "Aargh! Reducing people to their genitals!" ... Erh, no. --Why? Think about it.)

As for gender identity not being born in a vacuum. Very likely so. It doesn't follow the notion has any sense or coherence, though, does it?

My friend Dan's proof of the squaring of the circle wasn't born in a vacuum. And it draws inspiration from pre-existing ideas that persist on many sides of lots of conversations. Nevertheless we know it to be fallacious. There is no such thing as "squaring the circle" (in the sense Dan intends); nor could there be.

Likewise, there is no such thing as "gender identity" (in the sense certain trans apologists intend); nor could there be.

Do you think differently? What do you think "gender identity" means, if so?

I think Shania Twain might disagree with you

On a serious note, the problem isn't a person's understanding of biology, it's that our culture doesn't define people solely on their biology. Their body sure, but a person is more than their body, and anything that doesn't fit is viewed as "different". If you feel that's not you, personally, don't confuse your own views with our culture as a whole. Even people "who don't care" or "accept" difference carry some this baggage. Everyone makes use of heuristics to understand the world, including ones that when consciously evaluation don't fit their professed values 🤷‍♂️

Gender identity wasn't born in a vacuum, it draws inspiration from pre-existing ideas the persist on both sides of the conversation

Agreed! Thank you OP, this is the most satisfying and succinct way of expressing this fallacy of our times I have seen! 👏👏👏

I've seen that clip before. But it hasn't aged well. Jane Fae pretending that there is some kind of well established biological evidence, which there isn't. And being described as a feminist in the subtitle 😁

This is the 'feminist' who has spent their adult life campaigning to make sickening, extreme pornography legal, and to lower the legal age of the participants.

Little wonder they didn't want participants to be able to identify their own age!!

Interestingly, it does go to show how far we've come. I don't think anyone watching that now wouldn't see through it all, instantly.

Absolutely correct

Thanks. Yes. An old Buddhist friend used to tell me always to think of "rebirth" rather than "reincarnation".

Lots of interesting avenues with anatta, for sure. One day ... (or, as you say, month or two.)

There are some crossovers. Here's a nice one from 1978: CONCEPTIONS OF THE SELF IN WITTGENSTEIN, HUME, AND BUDDHISM

Exactly. I am a woman because I am female, so any way I behave, dress, think, feel, etc is feminine by definition. I am not female because I follow the restrictive gender stereotypes society deems to be feminine (which I don't anyway!)

Oh, please keep the parrot. You can teach her to say stuff like “I love JKR” and “ A woman is an adult human female.”

oops for edit!

There isn't any relevance because people don't wake up in different bodies except in science fiction. It doesn't happen.

You might as well ask what preparations the government has made for the event of the UK being attacked by teddy bears.

It's not confined just to feelings.
Whatever you dress like is 'dressing like a man', because you're a man and that's how you dress.
However you choose to live is 'living like a man' because you're a man and that's how you're living.
Any other definition requires the imposition of restrictive gender stereotypes that we've spent decades attempting to overturn.

Well, SHIT!
That’s disappointing.

Off to cancer amputation surgery and return parrot to the shop immediately.

They don't necessarily want to be totally physically different from what they’ve always known. Most trans-identifying people make very few changes to their bodies - if any.

In many cases it is simply that they claim an inner feeling of being the opposite sex. Hence things like 'girl dick'.

I don’t understand the relevance when people ask how you would feel if you woke up one day in a different body.

I get it’s a thought experiment, but trans people haven’t just woken up one day with a different body and want the old one back, they want to be totally physically different from what they’ve always known. And presumably if they donate up in an opposite sex body theyd be happy?