Maths teacher sacked for refusing to use opposite sex pronouns.

@OldCrone ,

I would have said of course you can enter. I wouldn’t have gone anywhere near the contradiction in thinking you are a boy and entering a girls’ maths competition. I would have entered her under ‘John’ and contacted the competition organiser and explained the situation.

In the unlikely event I was charged by another pupil, I would have said the competition was segregated by sex, not gender, and left it there.

In the same way, I thought it pretty bizarre that a girl in a girls’ school where I taught wanted to socially transition but remain at the same school. As long as she behaved and studied in the lesson, it wasn’t my business. Not my monkey, not my circus….

This compelled pronouns thing is quite strange, though. It is very rare you have to use a pronoun in a lesson (the only time I did, I had probably forgotten the pupil’s name!). I can only think of it coming up in report writing, where you can avoid it by name repetition, and conversations with other staff, which is a fair time to stick to your principles.

Do you think that his solution of calling every other child by their name but just pointing at her was acceptable?

this probably took place a while ago

If you'd read the links I posted for you earlier, you'd know exactly when this happened. It was in September 2021.

https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/kevin-lister-v-new-college-swindon

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12887549/I-sacked-20-years-teacher-standing-gender-ideology-new-guidance-welcome-writes-KEVIN-LISTER.html

What would you have done when the girl who everyone was supposed to pretend was a boy asked to enter the maths competition for girls?

I can just about accept the argument that John isn’t necessarily a boy. It’s disingenuous, because clearly the name change signals a claim to have transitioned into becoming a boy, but I accept that a personal name is not gendered in principle. But he was compelled to use pronouns too.

@pickledandpuzzled ,

No I wouldn’t call a girl melons (or cunt) either, that is just silly. Reductio ad Extremis arguments don’t often make good points. Did this ‘Melons’ thing actually happen?!

I also had ‘known as’ in the register. It wasn’t always up to date, and how do you know that wasn’t exactly what the register said about this girl?

The ‘compelled speech’ argument is also silly. I can believe someone is a girl and call them John. There is nothing fundamental about a name. If he had been forced to write ‘John, our new boy, is doing very well’, that would be compelled speech. There are loads of weird and non traditional names these days.

It is about sensible compromise and being respectful. So you would use the new name in class but use the name repeatedly in the report, rather than the chosen pronoun.

The way he went about expressing his concerns may not have been ideal. He was a bit clumsy and undiplomatic perhaps. He probably got his tactics wrong. But, bottom line, he was compelled to use certain speech that went against his fundamental beliefs and he was sacked for refusing to do that. And that is intolerable in a free society.

@Newbutoldfather are you telling me you’d call a child Melons?

I used to be. We had ‘known as’ in the register. So after the first term of reception where it became apparent that Lexie didn’t know who Alexandra is, and Fifi has no idea her name is Phoebe, it was all sorted.

@pickledandpuzzled ,

Are you a teacher?

Pupils care a lot about their names, some are really embarrassed about them. I guess it is that hormonal stage.

Going by the register name makes some sense but you risk upsetting and embarrassing some pupils. So calling Alexandra her full name rather than Lexie (say) might make her blush scarlet and not focus for the next 10 minutes. Is that what you are suggesting is best practice?

Teaching is about building positive relationships, so the pupil can learn in an environment which they consider safe and nurturing.

I do think the school should have informed her parents and I thought that the new guidance was for them to do so (although this probably took place a while ago).

A name is merely a name. I don’t agree that by using their new chosen name it is being complicit in anything. Again, if you are consistently gender critical, then you surely believe that there is no such thing as gendered names, any more than gendered colours. I don’t know where I stand on that debate, but there are some things better ignored in the classroom, both for the sake of the pupil and the teacher.

How has his confrontational attitude helped her become a better mathematician? Simple answer, it hasn’t. Has she engaged with him about her ‘transition’? Nope, quite the opposite, it has probably made her view more entrenched. Has it given other pupils the green light to bully her? Yup. So, on every level, as a teacher, it is a fail.

If teachers aren’t counsellors, why are they expected to follow the child’s ‘wants’?

They don’t have time or training to explore them with the child. No idea whether what’s being requested is harmful. Surely sticking to official name and pronouns is sensible?

What if child asks to be called Melons? I know a young woman who did. I hope her teachers refused as her value And individuality wasn’t to be found in her big bust.

It too much to expect teachers to navigate this. Register name, sex based pronouns, are the only sensible way. It’s a shame it became about an individual child. That’s the school’s fault.

I don't have an easy answer to this.
I get overwhelmed at how complicit schools have been in pushing this dangerous narrative about sex change in children being desirable. With a 6th former I know that issues of consent are more complex but also recognise that the trans capture of safeguarding authorities, the DBS means that they may well give advice that I'd disagree with.
I genuinely wish him well - I can just see a school leadership perspective that could undermine his case.

The DBS thing is truly beyond the pale.

When I was at high school in the 80s, teachers refused to use kid's nicknames, so is this any different? There was no official backing and the parents were kept in the dark, deliberately and wilfully so, by the school's safeguarding team.

People may find it disrespectful, but it's neither illegal, nor dangerous. It's a shocking travesty that he's been treated as though he were a paedophile, by the teacher's registry.

But having been told by the safeguarding team that they didn't intend to do anything, what should he have done then?

He couldn't stay away from the tricky issue because he was teaching this child, who wanted him to pretend she was a boy. The school agreed, refused to apply normal safeguarding procedures, and the parents didn't know.

He was put in a difficult position when she asked to enter the maths competition for girls.

What do you think he should have done? If he was fully going along with the pretence she was a boy should he have said, "No, Liam, you can't enter because this is for girls"? He may have thought she wanted to identify as a girl for the purposes of the competition. I think if I'd been in his position I really wouldn't have known what to do.

Xiaoxiong · Yesterday 10:55

MrsOvertonsWindow he does have a crowdfunder now and it looks like he has a barrister helping him - Dr. Anna Loutfi, of the Bad Law Project -

I thought that you were taking the piss out of The Good Law Project, until I looked them up. They seem to be an interesting outfit, good on them.

Classroom teachers are not counsellors and shouldn’t be diving in where professionals would go very gently and carefully.

I completely agree with this in theory, but in practice, the mission creep for teachers to be counsellors has been taking place for years, and not just around trans stuff.

Any kind of school-wide policy around affirming social transition puts every teacher in the position of facilitating something that they are not trained to do and shouldn't be expected to do.

I don't know about the merits of this particular case but I think that many schools have lost sight of the fact that in 99.9% of cases the people who care the most for children's wellbeing and happiness - and should also be doing the actual parenting - is their parents. I've read so many policies recently that seem to cast the parents as potential threats to their kids and a "professionals know best" approach. And then the result is often teachers on their knees when parents seem to expect schools to do not just the teaching but also all the parenting for them.

I’m as GC as they come, but my issue isn’t with the children in question, so I don’t pick my battles with them.

They’re suffering enough under gender ideology, without me posturing and haranguing all over the place.

He sounds like a terrible teacher.

but merely to teach her Maths and call her by her chosen name

Merely. There’s no such thing as merely here. To call her by her chosen name is to participate in social transition of the child. In this case it’s doing so without consulting the parents. Social transition is not a benign act. It is not “merely” anything. It leads to medical transition. It would be great if names weren’t tied up with social transition but they are.

And aside from that, if I found out school was calling my child by a completely different name, not even for gender reasons, just because the child wanted it, I’d be livid.

The difficulty is, he's correct about parents. But he's muddied the water by involving himself in discussions with the the child.
I can think of several cases involving mentally vulnerable children, desperate to involve members of staff with their personal issues where we've told staff - "do not get involved in any discussions about this. Send the child to .... and let the DSL know what's been said"
That was a management direction to protect a vulnerable child from countless adults with good intentions but who could unwittingly make a situation worse.
Sometimes individual staff need to stay away from tricky issues with some children / young people .

I hope he wins but am just concerned that he may not if I've read the situation clearly.

He seems to have been concerned about the student and wanted the school to inform her parents.

What is your view on the school's refusal to inform the parents?

@MrsOvertonsWindow ,

That is a good and fair post.

I think the DBS thing is an overreaction and he could appeal it, but given his age and attitude, maybe it is time to think about retiring or doing something else.

Teaching in a classroom is not about engendering your views, however right they may be, it is about teaching a subject and creating a healthy happy learning environment. If he had Donne this sensitively in PSHE or form time, I would have more sympathy.

It is hard to know whether the pupil is a sensitive child, maybe on the spectrum, or a bit of a shit stirrer. Either way, classrooms are tricky environments, and the last thing a teacher should be doing is encouraging other pupils to pick on another pupil, which his behaviour was clearly going to do.

The place for this debate is the staff room, among fellow professionals, not the classroom.

What a brave and principled man.

I'm always uneasy when an individual child / young person is at the centre of a case like this. I get that he felt strongly about the situation but it 's incumbent on teachers to follow school policy / procedures. So while I agree with his views, I still don't think it was his place to engage in any discussions with her around this and wouldn't be surprised if he loses.
Having said that, the decision by the DBS is outrageous. If their decision is not overturned becuase he was found to be failing to follow school policy /management instructions it will make the lives of teachers everywhere more difficult.
This case is problematic for so many reasons and I'm not certain that it will help teachers struggling to deal with all this.

With the teacher being so close to the retirement, probably less f*cks left to give.

Editing, after reading page 2.

He sounds like a decent man and I agree with everything he’s said.

I would much prefer him to have a lawyer, but it may already be too late.

I hope the judge takes it into account that he’s representing himself. He does have the advantage that his position appears to have been logical, considered and consistent. He doesn’t sound like a fanatic and I hope he is successful.