Feeling depressed after conversations with my young adult daughters regarding female value.

I am an older millennial. There’s always been a decent size portion of men who value women based on how many people they have slept with.

I would be more disappointed that my daughters were blaming women for men’s poor behaviour. I have a daughter who is 20. She knows that’s men’s behaviour is a male problem. It’s not (and never has been) caused by women.

If 2 of the 9 were rapes then 7 consensual partners is only one a year if starting at 16. But what’s important is that young women can have sex with as many or as few people as they want and not come away feeling disappointed, abused, disrespected or judged.

Why are people almost keen to gloat laugh and laugh about how they've slept around. They don't want judgement but others who don't prescribe to that are derided as pearl clurchers. Female posters who don't sfree with Op anf ger followed are leapt upon.

It's also deeply concerned that a young woman rated 2 rapists in her bodies list and is still attracted to one.

You’ll be clutching your pearls and having a heart attack if you knew how many people I’d slept with by that age then 😂😂

I say this with horror and sympathy for the DD in this story and what she has been through with men at the forefront of my mind. Whatever will she think if she reads this thread?

But to my mind the whole concept of a 22 year old sitting down in a bar and sharing a written list of the men she had slept with and accompanying notes and score ratings on a phone with her mother is off the scale unusual. Ok, a frank conversation, guidance sought, loving support needed, yep I absolutely get that, but a written list, details of the sex, scores and the casual slipping in that two of the 'bodies' were rapists, on a phone, in a bar. Really?

Also, if my DD had told me that she'd been raped twice I would be tearing my heart out with rage and the need to protect and help. That would be the main focus, not this academic examination of the feminist position posting on MN.

The rapes seem an aside in the original post. Unbelievable a mother would see it that way.

Then to come in with a line about millennial feminists being responsible for the the likes of Andrew Tate and all related misogyny.....well talk about victim blaming and passing the problem of arsehole men onto women.

What is this?

@ginasevernI would actually find it disturbing that a 22 year old child of mine had slept with 9 people. I would also be extremely uneasy at them using the term "bodies" for human beings.

Those are the two big things that would concern you?! I would be a lot more concerned that “a child of mine” had been raped twice.

WTF well it’s no surprise going men are judging your daughter when we have female posters on the feminist board busy doing the same as they lump in two rapes with consensual sex. Shameful behaviour there and not from your daughter.

As for the idea that ‘she needs to learn to report rape’ is equally offensive. Reporting is complex and leaves some women at risk of further trauma. As for ‘hopefully’ avoiding being takes well yeah we all hope that but it isn’t a risk factor that we can control while living in a society with men in it.

It is depressing OP and I am glad your daughter has you to talk to.

Why are you assuming i am inexperienced? Who are you to know i haven't had sex with 1/20//30/50/100 men? I certainly hadn't however had 9 by the age of 22. I am not the only person to think this is quite a high amount for her age, other posters have commented on it before me, so have a go at them too. Op's daughter can continue having sex with whoever wants it with her, that's fine. She can have sex with hundreds of men if she can find them. Her "pureness" as you put is meaningless as that's long gone and you are twisting what I said anyway. I said if she stops seeing men as commodities she might find one that doesn't see her as a commodity. Mind you, from Op's comments the girl is happy to sleep around and isn't looking for a committed relationship
She sadly needs to learn to report rape and will hopefully avoid being raped again. One more thing:: You seem to think it is wrong to be "inexperienced" as you put it. People could argue it is wrong to screw around. If you term inexperience as not listing sexual "partners" as bodies, rating partners prowess and think 9 partners by the age of 22 is great that says more about you. Also someone you think is inexperienced might just not have said yes to every potential screw that came along. Almost any woman can get sex easily if they want to, it's just that some are much choosier than others. Some prefer commitment and a relationship over a succession of meaningless, cheap sex. Having 1 partner isn't s bad thing.

I would actually find it disturbing that a 22 year old child of mine had slept with 9 people. I would also be extremely uneasy at them using the term "bodies" for human beings. In fact the OP's daughter seems so comfortable with the term that she shares it with her mother without a second thought.

Otherwise, women with fewer sexual partners (and especially virgins) have always been considered purer or more desirable, probably since the dawn of time. The Virgin Mary has been venerated for centuries and she replaced much older goddesses. I'm not saying it's right but I'm not sure why the OP finds the whole concept strange.

9 is a lot at 22 (imo and others I'm sure)

In the opinion of judgemental arses, perhaps. Stop being part of the problem @Bbq1 .

(And it's only around 2 a year if she started at 18. Really not excessive for someone in their prime dating years.)

I have been asked about my sexual history and I have asked the men I have been with. It says something about what kind of people they are, the meaning sex they attach to sex etc. I don't think that is the problem. The problem is referring to "bodies" and the value judgement attached to numbers over 3(?).

Two rapes are horrific. I am very sorry she experienced that.

@Bbq1 A lot according to you? Different people approach sex differently and that's their right. I am sure you don't want to be judged for being inexperienced. ;-) You are insinuating that OP's daughter is at fault. If only she changes her attitude and becomes more pure, men will love and cherish her. We all know that is not true. Virgins can be (and are!) raped.

The problem is that women no longer NEED men but men haven't adjusted to this and upped their game in response.

Fifty years ago women needed a man to get a mortgage/loan etc and for social acceptance.

Now women have the freedom to choose if having a man actually adds positivity to their lives.

Research consistently shows that being married benefits men more than women, in terms of health, happiness and life expectancy. In fact being married has a negative impact on women's health, happiness and life expectancy compared to single women.

Men still think that they have the same value to us that they have always had and are angry because they feel entitled have a wife/girlfriend just for existing.

No and I said I was sorry for that but the rape(s) are still on the list and apparently rated in terms of prowess. 9 is a lot at 22 (imo and others I'm sure) and if Op's dd stops seeing men as commodities she might build a happy, successful relationship with a man who does not view women in that way - because many men don't. Rape is wrong and abhorrent under any circumstances.

Thinking about it, the mainstream aggressive pornography we see now did not occur in a vacuum either. If men had been disgusted by the images they were seeing, the porn industry would have changed direction and we would have a very different type of pornography now. But they didn’t. They’ve embraced it, world wide, with much enthusiasm.

The core problem is that men’s underlying attitudes to women never really changed. That is what we need to address. But how?

The only answer to the question how many people have you slept with? Is 'That is absolutely none of your business, and you should never ask me that again'. End of.

I think internet porn has a lot to answer for. The depictions of aggressive and demeaning sex towards women and the fact that there are no age controls on who can watch them in the secrecy of their own homes has created the problem.
Monsters like Tate simply fuel an appetite that has already been set by those who create this vile pornography.
It is a worry, particularly when you read stories like this

Did you show her a list of your bodies? Eurgh. I have heard the term but would never use it in relation to anything other than something dead!

if this is true which I'm sure it's not then I apologise. Especially to your daughter

I guess the first difference that springs to mind is that she hasn't raped any of them.

I have an 18 year old ds and we have quite an open relationship. However, i cannot imagine going out with ds for a meal /drink and him whipping out his shag list with ratings next to the girls... that's disgusting. Referring to people as bodies is foul, very dehumanising. I'm sorry that your ds experienced non consensual sex but her referring to boys /men as bodies, rating them and then discussing the list with her mum is wrong. How is your dd any different from the men she has sex with as she also views them as commodities?