Feeling depressed after conversations with my young adult daughters regarding female value.

I think it is true that promiscuity does not work for many women. I had a fair few ONS as a young woman, simply because I thought that was what you were meant to do if you didn’t subscribe to sexist views, and honestly it was rubbish. Lots of shit rubbish sex. If you are a woman who doesn’t orgasm from PIV sex ( like me), then casual sex is just shit. You have much better sex in a relationship.

Bur I think most men find the same. I remember hearing a group of young men talk. I think they had forgotten I was in the room. Well, one very good looking young man was talking, who I imagine was very successful in attracting women, and he was telling his co-workers that he had decided to stop picking up women and find a girlfriend instead, because he said he wasn’t really enjoying these casual encounters, he wanted something more, and the sex wasn’t even good. This chimes with research I have read which found the same. When men were asked what they wanted from sex, they actually did want companionship and connection from the person they were having sex with. Like women do ( this research was prior the rise of internet porn).

I also disagree the women are less visual than men in their sexual arousal. Women might not enjoy mainstream porn which prioritizes men’s pleasure and in which they are dominated and degraded, but then, it’s not surprising women are less likely to enjoy such porn. I have read research that instead of showing men and women sexual images and asking them for their response, actually attached sensors to their genitals and measured the response. And guess what, women had very high visual sexual responses and to a wider variety of images than men. This makes sense to me. I hate porn but I love watching me and my partner having sex in a mirror. I enjoy it far more than he does.

i actually don’t think make and female sexuality is as different as is often made out.

RebelliousCow · Today 10:18

Being promiscuous and/or sleeping with any man you fancy has been sold to girls as a liberating activity, in the same way that only fans and prostitution has been scrubbed up as being 'sex positive' or 'sex work'. Personally, don't think any of it is especially good for women and girls and it certainly doesn't make them " equal" to men. There will always be double standards and different consequences.

I slept with quite a few men in my teenage years as I was living in and around 'alternative' and political activist scenes - but none of it was very edifying, or even enjoyable, beyond the moment. You live and learn.

having sex before you are officially fully grown up, not reporting rape and accepting it???, having abortions without the moral considerations what this really is??? - if this is what mumsnet considers being valued as a woman, please, delete me account again.

I think many people are still waiting for the 'revolution'...for the day when everyone, men and women, are 'equal'. To my mind that flies in the face of human and social reality. We are not all equal in that our various human conditions will never be the same as each other. Waiting for the day that men will become more like women......and are in denial that there are some sex based differences. All differences are ascribed to 'the patriarchy' -especially the differences which are less sensitive to women and girls; their needs or feelings.

Male sexuality in general, is different to female sexuality...and you see this illustrated in the fact that men tend to be more visual and object oriented, and so more prone to fetishism, to voyeurism, looking at pornography. Even the 'nice guys' tend to be interested in sleeping with a variety of different 'type' of woman and if the opportunity ever came their way or presented itself to them on a plate they'd find it very difficult to resist.

Male sexuality, like the male organ is more extrovert and outer oriented, female sexuality more introvert and inner oriented. Women have an inherent greater need for safety and trust because their bodies are more easily violated and their boundaries breached.

Exactly. Misogyny is to blame for the culture. It’s the misogyny that is informing her view. Not feminism.

I agree RebelliousCow. It’s a difficult one because the second you suggest there’s anything possibly not great about promiscuity, you’re open to accusations of wanting to control women or being a prude blah blah and not being feminist. And it’s true that women should be able to have sex and sexual relationships without being judged and should be able to make their own choices about that.

But it’s also true that if there’s a pressure on women to be porno sex dolls and not be “prudes” and essentially have sex just because it serves men’s needs, it can be very demeaning and horrible for them and might not be making them happy at all. IME women (and to an extent men) who are very promiscuous are often unhappy, have trauma issues, or a background of sexual abuse. We also need to be helping young people - especially girls - that it’s ok to not have sex and you shouldn’t feel any pressure to do anything’s sexual you don’t like.

Somehow you missed the fact that the OPs DD had been date raped twice. In fact, I don’t think she needed your judgemental victim blaming comment dressed up as a pretend joke.

@BigButtons I too have been hearing about this body count of ‘acceptable’ numbers of sexual partners for women from my DC. Funny how it never applies to men. It is alarming as mothers of young adult DDs and utterly depressing how fast we’re going backwards. Or maybe we never made the progress that we thought we had. There’s more pressure than ever for young women to engage in sex regardless. All so transactional and emotionless.

Being promiscuous and/or sleeping with any man you fancy has been sold to girls as a liberating activity, in the same way that only fans and prostitution has been scrubbed up as being 'sex positive' or 'sex work'. Personally, don't think any of it is especially good for women and girls and it certainly doesn't make them " equal" to men. There will always be double standards and different consequences.

I slept with quite a few men in my teenage years as I was living in and around 'alternative' and political activist scenes - but none of it was very edifying, or even enjoyable, beyond the moment. You live and learn.

Of course not. I didn’t say to ‘rise above’ rape. I was talking about teaching girls to have a mind that rape is most definitely in the kitbox of some men. So ‘rising above’ cheap flattery and over familiarity with men they don’t know for example. Avoiding men who don’t behave entirely gentlemanly in public and in private. Spotting the signs of misogyny and disrespect.

Most rapes happen with men that the woman knows. Naivety about the way men operate can be as much risk to them as a spiked drink.

This is exactly why she feels ‘millennial feminism’ is to blame for the culture. Her closest male influencers are the type that blame women for their own personal failings and unhappiness.

The type that are angry women might be getting closer to equality. They don’t like women who know their worth and so look for any reason to drag women down. These men have, probably, also contributed to the decision to not report the rapes and shrug them off. Because these are the sorts of men that also believe being raped is a woman’s fault.

That’s where you need to be focussing on. That she is internalising their misogyny and it’s actively harming her. You can challenge her POV that women are to blame for awful men. But I suggest it’s something that’s done slowly and gently.

A family member in her late 80s told SIL and me that she had often been called names and judged socially having had ‘several boyfriends’ as an older teenager then became pregnant at 18. After several years a lot of trauma/events affecting them and the DC they married and stayed together, with some family members and people ‘in the village’ still openly insulting her, bringing it up etc. Awful.

in the same vein as this ‘modern’ crap.

I'm 60 and no man ever asked me how many men I'd slept with. They would have been told it was no concern of theirs, if they had. If they raised it a second time they would have been dumped.

I feel so sorry for your dds. How have they got to the point they value themselves so little and waste their time with such creeps? They need to reset their social lives, change their surroundings and most of all, build up their self respect and self worth.

I'm raising a teen ds and the whole issue of male-female relationships needs active guidance at the moment. Ds knows AT is loathsome but he came out with the worry that girls will only date men who earn 80k and have a bmw. 🙄

Until I pointed out that would mean 90% of the male population would be single.

I spend my time reassuring him that he will find his niche, and showing him how life works - positive role models, people with happy lives (without earning 80k).
Taking away the pressure, making sure he doesn't worry about that stuff too early. I introduce him to as many different social situations as I can so he has a choice. Give him as many skills and as much confidence as possible. Make sure he knows he will have help if he wants it. But that women are equals and everyone has the same struggles and worries.

The teen years probably need the most intervention.

@Screamingabdabz your post seems a twist on victim blaming, on mothers and fathers.

It also seems naive. you can’t ‘rise above’ a rapist, for example.

My dd is 22. She is objectively very beautiful and gets male attention where ever she goes. Some of it is very intrusive and distressing and she knows how toxic and pushy men can be. She tells me about experiences like your dd’s through her friends and she finds it shocking.

What has helped my dd is that our family is full of lovely supportive men. She has observed over many years how real gentlemen talk and behave. I’ve also drilled into her since she was a toddler to know her worth and not put up for one second of male bullshit and arrogance. (She’s also never seen me be the domestic doormat of the house).

I think we all have a duty to arm and teach our daughters from an early age about living in a patriarchy. I think once they are able to see the world through the lens of male privilege and male predatory behaviour, they will be better equipped to rise above it and avoid it.

OP, did your daughter fully recognise the rape incidents for what they were before your conversation? I got the impression from your first post that she was conflicted over it.

Agree with this.

Whilst the language has changed the message is no different to when I was young - sleep around = bad girl. I remember watching a comedy and the female lead was saying when a man asks you how many men you have been with you say 2, the night I got drunk and my first true love (might have been My Family or something like that) really not that different.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable with a man who had had lots of girlfriends, so it is no different

I agree, @Delphinium20. My DH and I have never discussed previous partners except in very general terms, I have no desire to know his number of bodies and vice versa. We both know the names of a couple of more serious partners and have seen some old photos, but that’s about it. Mind you, we’re all late 40’s/early 50’s now so we might not recognize each other anymore. 🤣

I agree with PP that disclosing sexual experiences with others should be strongly discouraged. While I'm not trying to pretend I was a virgin until I met him, I've never 'disclosed' how many men I've slept w/ to my DH of 2 decades. He's of course aware of who my long-term boyfriends had been, but I never shared sex details! He doesn't want details and I don't feel that's his business (doubt I'd remember it all anyways as it was so long ago!). It's NO man's business what you did before you met him, especially if you're just casually dating. Of course, choose to tell your spouse what you want, but 'body counts' is no one's business but your own.

I have DDs similar age and I agree on how they've been treated by men and the Andrew Tate is disturbingly on many young men's radar, even in men my DDs seem to think are respectful to them. My oldest DD has been raped...it was awful. She's okay now, but it's been long road, useless police help (although sympathetic). She didn't tell me, I was told by a concerned counselor who wasn't authorized to tell me but did anyway because she sensed from DD that I was a safe/helpful mother. I'll forever be grateful for her risking her employment and telling me because then I was able to help DD and I no longer worried if DD had some kind of pathology, rather I knew why her behavior was the way it was. DD didn't want to tell us because she didn't want us to have the pain of knowing what happened to her. When she'd come home with cuts and bruises, she was carrying a skateboard and announced she was learning how to skate...she faked an interest in skating for a few months so we wouldn't question her injuries. I'm ashamed to say I fell for it.

I try really hard to remind my DDs that the men watching Tate and watching violent porn are learning how to treat them. Porn-obsessed men, 'purity' demanding men damage young women. It's utterly depressing. I wish I had better answers. I just try to talk to them about their rights to demand their partners treat them well and they have rights to tell men "no porn. no Tate, etc."

Yes, and then buy a copy of Hags by Victoria Smith for both of you to read.

The term "bodies" alone is new to me

I have heard "body count" and Jason Derulo wrote a song with that title.

I find it revolting but it does seem to be a term that gets used quite frequently.

I've not heard of "slugs and snails" that pp referenced.

See I think this is worrying. People tend to live up to how they think people see them. If we want men to see women as equals, we need a culture where they know that is expected of them and they know people believe they are capable of this.
If they already feel they are damned, why bother? I mean, there are a lot of advantages to them in not respecting women or seeing them as equal. Why not listen to Andrew Tate if everyone thinks you are shit anyway?

No-one should be regarding the fellow people they have sex with as ‘bodies’. No wonder the daughter shrugs of rape if she has internalized a belief in herself as a body for a man to have sex with, rather than a person who can be violated.

in fact the daughter dos seem to have absorbed an accepted a huge amount of current cultural misogyny.