Does the Transgender community have a problem with well evidenced science? Does the community only ever accept favourable reports, AKA confirmation bias, or is it something deeper?

Adherence to gender stereotypes is not an innate thing which means that we then have to try and conform to those stereotypes and THEN call it our sex.

Gender and sex are two different concepts.

So why the fuck are people trying to conflate them and then talk about scientifically measuring anything.

You could say that you could measure your willingness to conform to bible scripture, this does not then turn you into an actual frikkin' angel if you are at the more holy end of the scale!

You could say that you could measure your willingness to follow the law, this does not then automatically turn you into a judge if you like rules more!

Blame the person who said sexuality is measureable.

Uh, that was kinda me?
To be fair the actual thread was/is about science.

Previous poster said "well you can't measure sexuality, and that's not a belief!" so I pointed out that researchers can.

Then I got distracted by this paper when I was looking up examples: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34297214/
(Full text available free)

They used genital arousal and pupil dilation to measure sexual attraction.

They also attempted to quantify gender identity , which was what got me reading it in depth... they got women to pick how 'feminine' they felt, and got observers to rate their femininity from a video. I feel like this might be more than a little culturally variable - they even detail how they had to change the questions from the US version!
Really what they measured was conformity to gender stereotypes, they even flip between using 'gender identity' and 'gender non-conformity'.

They ultimately didn't find what they were looking for, which was a relationship between finger ratio in females and sexuality, which also interested me because I've read about that before... but actually it seems pretty tenuous.

Sorry, I'm not the best at philosophical debate but I don't like being told what scientists can and can't do ta very much, we're an inventive bunch (*only with full REC approval obviously)

Yeah, just another transparent attempt to associate transgenderism with sexuality.
No one cares whether sexuality is measurable or not because it has zero impact on other people's lives. This insistence to arrive at a consensus as to whether it is is measurable is very strange. Who cares if it is or isn't? Does this poster?

It is offensive. I am offended. Please stop it. LGB people do not affect anyone else's existence in any way whatsoever. Stop it.

Transgenderism DOES affect many other people not directly involved. And this is what this thread is about.

I don’t believe anyone said ‘sexuality’ is measurable though. I could be wrong. I think some posters have conflated the very broad term of ‘sexuality’ as being the exact same thing as ‘sexual orientation’. Paraphilias , for example, are an example of sexuality and sexual orientation is is not a paraphilia.

the mind blowing whataboutery on this thread continues, doesn’t it tellme?

I don’t think that it is a false comparator has sunk in. It doesn’t matter how many times it is said or how many ways it is said, that poster is wedded to their ‘gotcha’.

What? 😂😂😂

Good grief.

It doesn't matter BECAUSE IT'S NOT RELEVANT.

Sexuality has absolutely nothing to do with transgender issues.

Not sure which argument you think you've won 😂

I'm going to take all of the responses saying that it doesn't matter if sexuality is measureable or not as an indication that I've won the argument, because nobody can give a good argument that sexuality is measureable but don't want to admit I'm right, so the only response is "it doesn't matter".

The point is, it doesn't matter if sexuality measurable or not.
It is not relevant to this debate in any way.
We may as well whether you can measure who prefers a Chinese or a pizza on a Friday night. NO ONE CARES. Crack on. Have a fabulous time. No one else is affected and everyone is happy.

People with a functioning brain and clarity of thought DO care about gender ideology. For many, very important reasons.

Please forgive my typos I've on the gin already folks. Has been a rough week

Blame the person who said sexuality is measureable.

//

One persons sexuality has no bearing on another person at all. None whatsoever

I'm a bit simple with these things so please forgive my simple musings .

But for me If an inner feeling you have means -

laws must be made/changed,

language must be compelled

Women and young people should be
exposed to a risk not open to any other group,

Sporting opportunity taken away from women and girls,

Young people are cheer-leaded onto a medical pathway which will affect their bone density on layer life and mean they will never experience an orgasm,

You have to be able to physically prove and measure the that feeling. Have to. There is too much at stake and risks for others affected by your feelings are too big an ask.

Blame the person who said sexuality is measureable.

...
When someone says they knew they were gay when they were a child do you believe them or do you imply that they're a pervert?

YY. It's unfalsifiable, subjective and perception based.

So far, nothing has been raised that shows Gender identity as anything other than a belief. An internal feeling is a belief, that is what a belief is - a feeling that something is true.

“I was straight and fancied boys when I was 8 but I didn't have a sexual arousal response at the time. It can't be entirely reduced to that!”

Fuck this is grim.

You have now brought a childhood ‘fancying’ of an 8 year old into it. And you don’t see any problem with that at all.

Jesus Christ. Why are we getting sidetracked again? And why is sexuality being brought into this debate yet again?

Someone's sexuality has absolutely no bearing on anyone else's lives other than the people directly and personally involved. So whether or not it is innate, internal, measurable or any other term is completely irrelevant. It doesn't affect anyone else.
To be frank, no one with a functioning brain actually cares because it has no affect on anyone else.

Gender identity and it's associated ideology absolutely DOES affect other people. In very real, concerning ways.

Stop dragging sexuality into this debate. It's lazy and actually very offensive.

It was a reply to this, which I quoted:

People choose to live their lives based on those internal feelings but you can't PROVE what those internal feelings are, you just listen to what the person says about themselves, or hopefully you do.

I thought it was obvious that I was replying to the bit I had quoted. You said 'hopefully you do', as though you thought that people should listen to what people said about their internal feelings. I was disputing that I should listen to whatever some random person says about their internal feelings, because it's not that interesting to me.

I don't care what internal feelings people have about their gender identity, unless they're men who think that having internal feelings of womanliness entitles them to access to women-only spaces, women's sports etc.

Gender identity is also an internal feeling.

How is it different from "knowing what your sex is"?

You don't have to? You don't have to listen to people talking about their sexuality either if you don't want to? What point are you making?

I have been quite clear. Lmao alright Liz Truss

What part of a gender identity can never be based on material reality of being that 'gender' which is also undefined with a stable and reliable definition are you missing?
That is one hell of a mangled sentence.

I don't really understand much of the rest either because I'm using sexuality and sexual orientation interchangeably, is there a difference in this context?

But yeah, what "sexed bodies" you have an arousal response to is a big part of sexuality but it isn't the only relevant factor there. I was straight and fancied boys when I was 8 but I didn't have a sexual arousal response at the time. It can't be entirely reduced to that!

Gender identity is also an internal feeling. People choose to live their lives based on those internal feelings but you can't PROVE what those internal feelings are, you just listen to what the person says about themselves, or hopefully you do.

And then what? What's the point of listening to someone talking about their internal feelings of having a particular gender? If it's a friend or family member talking about it, I might listen, just as I'd listen to them talking about anything else, but why would I want to know this about people I don't know? Surely it's only relevant to them and those who are close to them. Nobody else needs to know, and probably doesn't want to know because they're not interested in other people's internal feelings.

I have been quite clear. That sexual orientation relates to the arousal factor that someone feels while having sex with someone of a particular sexed body. You have tried to bring 'sexuality' into it. If you are not aroused by a group of people who have a particular sexed body, that is a material fact.

Someone can reliably work out what sexed bodies they have an arousal response to. It may be just one typed of sexed body or it can be both. Sexuality is a much huger topic than merely 'sexed bodies'. Sexuality would also by definition cover paraphilias. Sexual orientation is not a paraphilia, or are you really trying to say that sexual orientation is a paraphilia?

What part of a gender identity can never be based on material reality of being that 'gender' which is also undefined with a stable and reliable definition are you missing? Your continued doubling down and whataboutery doesn't change the facts and your logic in attempting to force a comparison being flawed.

I don't really disagree with any of that but if one argument against the existence of gender identity is that there is no scientific test for it and you can't prove it about a person, then the same absolutely applies to sexuality. None of the stuff you said indicates that you can observe or measure a person's sexual orientation contrary to what they tell you it is. I mean my sister exclusively dated and had sex with boys when she was a teenager and continued to do so for a couple of years even after she told us she was a lesbian. Life is complicated.