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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Does the Transgender community have a problem with well evidenced science? Does the community only ever accept favourable reports, AKA confirmation bias, or is it something deeper?

443 replies

HydraDominatus · 14/03/2024 13:25

Every piece of science or news thats not entirely supportive is buried under accusations of transphobia or bias

Why is this a political debate rather than a mental and physical health issue?

Cancer care isn't bias and politicised, trans health care shouldn't be either. Surely it's all about properly designed and researched programmes, with the outcome not predetermined, that we should be entirely standing behind?

Would the community ever stand behind rigorous, transparent, and ethically conducted research into transgender health care that did not align with its previous, deeply held views? If not, isn't that a problem?

tl;dr Is the Transgender community bias to it's own detriment?

(inspired by recent UK changes which do seem to be well researched, evidenced and guided by true support for people with genuine issues, it just does not line up with existing trans community narrative)

OP posts:
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Karensalright · 14/03/2024 17:29

LostInScience · 14/03/2024 17:23

Well the fa'afafine don't have a gender identity in the way it's understood in our society - they are homosexual men. They correspond, if anything, to the homosexual transexuals, with the exception that they don't feel dysphoria for their body, so they don't have a disconnect between their sex and their gender identity.

And they are classed as a third gender, not as “real” women

LostInScience · 14/03/2024 17:23

Well the fa'afafine don't have a gender identity in the way it's understood in our society - they are homosexual men. They correspond, if anything, to the homosexual transexuals, with the exception that they don't feel dysphoria for their body, so they don't have a disconnect between their sex and their gender identity.

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 17:13

@Catiette I really appreciate you taking the time to do this, but you've pointed me at an unattributed substack article. It's not remotely any kind of evidence against the scientific consensus. If I sent you an article by a climate change denier, how much credence would you give it? What bar would it have to overcome for you to believe it?

I'm reluctant to get into the article itself, but understand I am not a scientist, and I rely on the scientific consenses to guide my opinions, and I hope you do the same. Unless you are a maverick genius, of course, but there are only a handful of them.

Of course the way that sexuality manifests is culturally dependent - we didn't even have language for it until recently. I don't think anyone would argue otherwise, but even this writer appears to acknowledge that gender identity is innate, regardless of how it manifests. He then goes on to conflate gender non-conformity with being transgender. This is the biggest failing in this article. Gender expression does not always map one-to-one with gender identity. You can be a gender non-conforming women whether you are transgender or not.

If you are a trans women in a culture where women do X and wear Y, you are much more likely to want to do X and wear Y, even if what a women does in another culture is different.

He also ignores the fact science getting better and better at understanding mental health, and pretty much everything else about psychology and innate sense. His examples of past interpretations are evidence for, not evidence against gender identity. He doesn't call it a belief, at least, it's just in the normal range of experience. He then argues that transgender people don't exist - which absolutely does not follow from what he said before.

It's a shame, really. There is something here - if he'd argued straightforwardly that gender identity is real, and that transgender people exist aside from non-gender conforming people - and that the current approach is not the best approach to help them, at least that's an arguable starting point to look at the evidence. Interestlingly, he mentions the fa’afafine who are not mocked for knowing their gender identity, and are included in women's spaces.

OldCrone · 14/03/2024 16:56

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 15:59

And yet there are definitions of it on the website of pretty much every single medical and psychological body. There are multiple theories about how sexuality is recognised, formed and expressed, but no one sensible disputes it. Of course it's contested. The existence of it is not disputed, except by gender critical people.

I've just realised where the confusion comes from. The term "gender identity" has been used in scientific literature for a long time. It's nothing to do with transgenderism. It's used in child development to denote the stage when a child understands that they have a sex and that their sex is fixed.

This article by Katie Alcock might help you.

https://medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

Here are some excerpts, but I recommend you read the whole thing.

I read Twitter a lot and I’ve come across this statement — that children who are “trans” knew they had a “gender identity” different to their biological sex when they were very young, 3, 4 years old — quite a lot.

For example, this tweet by Mermaids ... quotes a study by psychologists at the University of Washington

So, what exactly do these type of studies and quotes mean by “gender”, “sex”, “identity” etc.? What have psychologists found out about children’s developing knowledge of sex and gender?

We have known about some related aspects of children’s thinking since the 1920s or earlier and some of the main, older studies in this area are from the 1960s. This is not a flash in the pan.

What this also means is that terminology has changed. When this area of research first started, everyone knew, and was clear, that they were talking about children’s knowledge of biological sex. The terms “sex identity” and “sex constancy” were used, to mean children’s knowledge of whether they were a boy or a girl, and whether they or others could change into the opposite sex. Around the 1990s everyone started getting squeamish about the word “sex” and started using “gender” as a euphemism. Researchers, however, still meant a child’s knowledge of biological sex.

So researchers are clear that we are talking about children’s knowledge of sex, and that this can’t change.

"Gender identity" is just a euphemism for "sex identity", and simply means "knowing what sex you are".

Young children, reality, sex and gender

This is a rough summary of a talk I gave on April 27th in Lancaster as part of an event I and other members of For Women Lancashire…

https://medium.com/@katieja/young-children-reality-sex-and-gender-3421f4f165f1

NecessaryScene · 14/03/2024 16:55

For me, that would be any study (biological or psychological) that found a reliable method of classifying people/ brains as male or female with a high degree of accuracy, and which showed transgender people as having a brain or personality as that of their claimed sex.

That's only step one. Step two is to demonstrate that this measurable "gender identity" correlates with anything we care about more than sex. Even if it did exist, that doesn't make it something we should care about.

People's star signs definitely exist, and can be determined accurately, but they have no predictive value, and there's no reason to base policy on it.

I suspect there may be some way of objectively identifying some common characteristic of "men who say/think/feel they're women", but why should we care that they say/think/feel they're women? All their behaviour and characteristics are still male.

sourdoughismyreligion · 14/03/2024 16:53

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 15:59

And yet there are definitions of it on the website of pretty much every single medical and psychological body. There are multiple theories about how sexuality is recognised, formed and expressed, but no one sensible disputes it. Of course it's contested. The existence of it is not disputed, except by gender critical people.

These definitions are often incoherent. Take APA.

It defines gender identity circularly as follows
a person’s psychological sense of self in relation to their gender.

And gender is defined in this hilariously nonsensical and circular way.

(Gender is) the socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for different genders. In a human context, the distinction between gender and sex reflects the usage of these terms: Sex refers to the biological status of being male, female, or intersex, whereas gender implies the psychological, behavioral, social, and cultural aspects of gender (i.e., masculinity, femininity, nonbinary, nonconforming, or other gender).

Gender is a socially constructed role, behaviour, activity and attribute considered appropriate for different socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities and attributes. Make it make sense!

Being charitable and assuming they mean 'appropriate for different sexes'. If we have a gender identity, and that is the reason we're women or men, it therefore follows that a woman is a woman because she does woman things and thinks woman thoughts. And a man is a man because he does man things and thinks man thoughts.

In order for man and woman to be two distinct and meaningful categories according to gender identity, there needs to be distinction between the woman things and the woman thoughts, and the man things and the man thoughts, otherwise it would be impossible to know what your gender identity is.

What are the woman things and the woman thoughts, according to science?

APA Dictionary of Psychology

A trusted reference in the field of psychology, offering more than 25,000 clear and authoritative entries.

https://dictionary.apa.org/intersex

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2024 16:39

Ideology and medicine do not mix.

The only other area of medicine it's common is childbirth.

Hmmm.... 🤔

DecayedStrumpet · 14/03/2024 16:39

I mean, everyone's guilty of cherry picking evidence, OP, it's part of being human.

I think an important question to ask is, what would I need to see to change my mind on this?

For me, that would be any study (biological or psychological) that found a reliable method of classifying people/ brains as male or female with a high degree of accuracy, and which showed transgender people as having a brain or personality as that of their claimed sex.

However, current evidence is more that we are a wide range of unique human beings that happen to come in two different body types, so I'm sticking with my worldview until that changes.

peanutbuttertoasty · 14/03/2024 16:38

If I cut into your body where would I find your gender identity? Or is it perhaps just a thought? Asking for a friend…

Are all human beings supposed to have one? Because I don’t. Am I broken? Should I see a doctor because I’m lacking something fundamental in my biology?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2024 16:36

I've read that before, very good.

Catiette · 14/03/2024 16:34

Huh. Just realised there's a massive, chunky link to the Mayo Clinic where I intended to highlight the one to the interesting substack.

Which is here, again:

https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

Trans Is Something We Made Up

On Separating Human Universals from Cultural Creations

https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

Ingenieur · 14/03/2024 16:29

Dad is committing the logical fallacy of appealing to authority.

The problem with this is clear, as we have seen with WPATH, is that anyone can assert anything without evidence. It's the science and evidence we need to consider, not what the institutions say.

It doesn't matter that some institutions assert a belief in gender identity. They do so not because of evidence, but because of ideology.

So no, it doesn't matter that the APA, ir WPATH assert something that is clearly lacking in evidence.

DecayedStrumpet · 14/03/2024 16:29

Do you accept that pretty much every reputable scientific, medical and psychological body of any repute in the entire world uses "gender identity" to mean a person's inner sense of their own gender

In its corrected form, yes, I agree with this statement.

That still doesn't mean that gender identity has any meaningful significance in the real world.

I could run a study, "Do practicing Christians recover faster from hip replacement surgery?"

I'd have to define what I meant by 'practicing Christian', but it wouldn't mean I shared their belief.

How could anyone's gender identity have any wider significance, when everyone's concept of male and female gender roles is uniquely individual to the era, culture, and family background in which they were raised?

SpicyMoth · 14/03/2024 16:15

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 14:25

Do you accept that pretty much every reputable scientific, medical and psychological body of any repute in the entire world uses "gender identity" to mean an innate sense a person's innate sense of their own gender, and not a "belief"?

If you don't believe in the validity gender identity, and consider being transgender as a belief, you will oppose any efforts to allow people to transition, and believe in RODG, despite is being thoroughly discredited. Your beliefs lead you to bad science and bad allies.

Some of you would even prefer that transgender should be reduced in number, that they are all problems in a sane world, happy or not. Would you ever say a gay person is a "problem in a sane world" or that every one is a difficulty because they require "special accommodation." Can't you see how chilling that is?

Joyce isn't a scientist. comes up with insane theories about fan fiction turning you trans, and yet she is a poster child for the GV movement. Why would you believe her expect for confirmation bias?

Helen Joyce: In the meantime, while we're trying to get through to the decision makers, we have to try to limit the harm, and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition.
And that's for two reasons. One of them is that every one of those people is a person who's been damaged. But the second one is every one of those people is basically, you know, a huge problem to a sane world.
Like if you've got people that, and whether they're transitioned, whether they're happily transitioned, whether they're unhappily transitioned, whether they've detransitioned. If you've got people who've dissociated from their sex in some way, every one of those people is someone who needs special accommodation in a sane world where we re-acknowledge the truth of sex.
And I mean the people who’ve been damaged by it – the children who’ve been put through this – those people deserve every accommodation we can possibly make, but every one of them is a difficulty.

"insane theories about fan fiction turning you trans"

My friend, you really ought to actually go into online trans "safe spaces" such as Reddit's own r/MtF or r/Transmaxxing and similar on other sites... You do not have to engage or even create an account to view what is being said.

These are not "insane theories" some trans people genuinely do do this.

Literally no one is saying ALL trans people when they bring this up, merely pointing out that because things like that exist and do happen, it's clearly not as ingrained for everybody as we are lead to believe.

ApocalipstickNow · 14/03/2024 16:13

Here’s dad joke with his briefcase holding the answer

pulp fiction GIF
Catiette · 14/03/2024 16:10

OK, massive post. Sorry. Got carried away thinking things through. May change my views on reflection, too! Thanks if you can bear to read... I've added sub-headings so you can skip! 😂

So.

I'd recommend reading the link far, far, far below. I'd be especially interested to see what @DadJoke thinks about it. I don't agree with everything in it (& am also uncomfortably conscious of my own ignorance - it delves into science, medicine, anthropology, philosophy...!) but I do find it a fascinating way of potentially reconciling the different positions on this thread. Or at least those I was seeing 20 posts ago last time I looked!

In short (ish), as I understand it, the article argues how, in a sense, both positions may be seen as correct: gender identity does, & doesn't, exist! Further down is a short (OK, actually not remotely, but it's all needed for it to make sense) extract in italics from the whole, in which the author uses PTSD to explain what they mean by this.

TLDR

TLDR: With apologies for using the uncomfortably reductive "real" & "not real" for simplicity's sake... As I understand it, the author below argues that PTSD is "real" in that it describes a universal human experience - as, indeed, identifying with a particular sex appears to be (not everyone may experience PTSD or have a gender identity, but these do exist as potential, or latent, "realities"). But particular manifestations of PTSD may be culturally constructed; they're influenced by - they're in a sense, the product of - a particular place, time & context (again, I'd say, this seems relevant to gender identity).

My Thoughts

If we're to accept this perspective - & I think it's helpful in many ways - I'd also say that my own concern is the enforced imposition of gender identity on the whole of our society. Other distinct manifestations of universal human experiences are acknowledged & judged/treated/accommodated/condemned on their own "merits" (itself a problematic process fraught with prejudice and contradiction, of course!) They're not, however, imposed on the rest of the population, in that those of us who don't experience them aren't defined by them & categorised by our experience, or lack thereof, of them - our own reality isn't being subsumed into them (I'm not, for example, labelled an infidel by the faithful - and I'd be concerned if I were; certain other theocratic societies which do take this approach could be see as authoritarian).

This, to me, is the key difference. I'm interested in the concept of gender identity as a contemporary manifestation of one facet of the glorious variety of human experience, and that's fine (although I'd personally say it's become a problematic umbrella term for a wealth of more complex, disparate, experiences). Regardless, though, gender identity isn't real for me - & yet I'm being told it's fundamental to who I am. So I have the utterly destabilising sense both of my own reality being denied, & of society itself being reshaped to accommodate something I perceive as wholly individual & potentially transitory. And this in place of biological sex, tested by centuries of scientific understanding!

Link

https://bprice.substack.com/p/trans-is-something-we-made-up

Extract

"Whether or not they’ve given the matter any thought, most 21st century Western people probably share the belief that PTSD is a predictable human response to trauma. It’s widely viewed as a human universal. Trauma reactions have been documented for thousands of years.

Well, yes and no. PTSD is a bit like windigo. There’s a universal human experience at the core, and there’s a bunch of cultural stuff laid on top.

Let’s look at Western symptoms in response to trauma at a few different time points:

In about 440 BC Herodotus, in writing about the battle of Marathon, described a soldier with symptoms in response to emotional trauma that developed during a sword fight: he suffered psychogenic blindness and frightening visions of a giant enemy soldier.

Flash forward a couple thousand years: In World War I, “shell shock” was described as a trauma response to war: “The main causes are the fright and anxiety brought about by the explosion of enemy shells and mines, and seeing maimed or dead comrades ... The resulting symptoms are states of sudden muteness, deafness ... general tremor, inability to stand or walk, episodes of loss of consciousness, and convulsions.”

Then, just a few decades later, in the post‒Vietnam War era, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) was officially recognized in the DSM-III, the diagnostic manual used by psychologists and psychiatrists. The full criteria are somewhat lengthy, but basically, instead of being shut down like the World War I vets, the new PTSD diagnosis required symptoms of hyperarousal, including “difficulty falling or staying asleep … irritability or outbursts of anger…difficulty concentrating … hyper vigilance … exaggerated startle response … [and] physiological activity upon exposure to events that symbolize or resemble an aspect of the traumatic event.”

In the new conception of PTSD, there was also an aspect of “reliving” the old trauma in response to triggering events.

The stereotype of the World War I vet was of someone who was so shut down he withdrew, and his physical symptoms corresponded to that. The stereotype of the Vietnam War vet was of someone who was so high strung he would dive for cover when he heard a weather helicopter and become combative and confused.

And now today, in the early 21st century, compared to the past 2,500 years in which trauma responses were widely acknowledged to occur in response to an “event that is outside the range of usual human experience” such as war, the definition of PTSD has expanded to include responses to all sorts of lesser events.

As the Mayo Clinic website describes it, “Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) is a mental health condition that's triggered by a terrifying event — either experiencing it or witnessing it. Symptoms may include flashbacks, nightmares and severe anxiety, as well as uncontrollable thoughts about the event.”

No longer just survivors of extreme events “outside the range of usual human experience” but people who’ve suffered more common human experiences, like bullying, are now conceived of as being vulnerable to PTSD as well.

Again: “people are conscious of the way they are classified, and they alter their behavior and self-conceptions in response to their classification.”

This might explain, for example, why there was no such thing as being “triggered” by emotionally difficult lecture material in 1975, and yet we’ve heard about it often in recent years. Our current cultural understanding is that it’s possible to have a trauma response to upsetting educational content — it’s now become a thing for us, just as the fear of becoming a cannibal is a thing in another culture — and so if a lecture is upsetting, it can (really) result in being triggered now.

No one is pretending. Our cultural expectations shape our reality. Both those things can be true.

There’s always a human universal underlying these phenomena. The human universal here is that humans sometimes have extreme responses to traumatizing events. But the specific ways they respond, and even what they consider to be trauma, change depending on time, place, culture, and context. Trauma responses are very real. But culture lays a lot of things on top of it. Culture tells you how to respond, but you’re not aware that’s happening, so the response feels like it’s coming from inside you.

Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) - Symptoms and causes

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20355967

WitchyWitcherson · 14/03/2024 16:08

BackToLurk · 14/03/2024 15:33

The notion of 'gender identity' is contested, and even among those who accept the idea of individuals having a 'gender identity' there are multiple theories about how that that identity is recognised, formed, expressed etc. You write as though there is a single definition of 'gender identity'. There isn't.

This, I mean I had no idea that the scientific community viewed 'gender identity' as fact 😳news to me!

The thing is, people's behaviour and choice of clothing (and their comfort/discomfort with particular clothing or behaviours) can be described as sitting somewhere on a culturally defined masculine-feminine scale, and that association with those factors has become what some call "gender identity" since postmodernists decided to poke their greasy fingers through the notion of material reality. But it's entirely dependent on the culture and therefore not innate. If you had, say, a culture where women wore the same clothes as men and were celebrated for physical prowess as much as other more widespread "feminine" activities, then you would presumably get less females having a "male" gender identity because "physical prowess" was not deemed a masculine trait. In a world where there was widespread acceptance of all behaviours and clothing being for everybody, regardless of their sex, then gender identity would cease to exist as nobody would be at odds with where they sat on the masculine-feminine scale?

Sexuality has been hetero-, homo- or bi-sexuality since forever and in all cultures. Further acceptance doesn't create more homosexual or bisexual people. Innate.

Climate change is proven through extensive testing of specific factors (rainfall, number of natural disasters, global temperature).

Naunet · 14/03/2024 16:06

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 15:59

And yet there are definitions of it on the website of pretty much every single medical and psychological body. There are multiple theories about how sexuality is recognised, formed and expressed, but no one sensible disputes it. Of course it's contested. The existence of it is not disputed, except by gender critical people.

Fantastic news, in that case I’ll ask again because it should be very easy for you to answer, can you give me the scientific definitions of the man gender and the woman gender, and tell me if all genders, like cat gender are accepted as innate, or just the man and woman genders?

akkakk · 14/03/2024 16:05

gender is defined and clearly so - by the OED (Oxford English Dictionary - generally considered a reputable international publication):

  • c1390 - gender, n.Psychology and Sociology (originally U.S.). The state of being male or female as expressed by social or cultural distinctions and differences, rather…
  • a1382 - gender, v.¹intransitive. To copulate. Frequently with with. Obsolete.
  • 1825 - gender, v.²transitive. To assign or attribute a gender to; to divide, classify, or differentiate on the basis of gender.

Nowhere does that claim that gender is an absolute or 'thing' to be expressed innately or otherwise - the best way to understand the first definition is that when you hold up a mirror to society at any one point in time then society will have certain understanding around how men and women portray and this is considered gender... but in that very definition comes the fact that it is a glimpse in time / a momentary or fleeting understanding of consensus then - to change the next moment. As such it is impossible to define and write down what it means to 'be' something that is only a reflection not a being...

perhaps some people only read the first part of the definition - The state of being male or female without reading the clause as expressed by...

The second definition is of course more fun - To copulate - hmm, not sure how that ties into the trans-gender movement - anyone care to elaborate (pre-9pm watershed language please!) Of course it is now obsolete however it does give us the intransitive ' to engender' which means to give birth to something... so it is still a part of our conversation even now...

the third doesn't bring much to the party being simply the verb...

So, gender is understood - but at no point is it understood as something innate to the person - there is no definition stating that it is the essence of being male or female as expressed by the internal voice or anything similar - it is clear that it is an external reflection...

the deep deep irony of the trans-gender argument is that the official definition of the word gender being a reflection of society means that the more a man 'tries to live as a woman - i.e. trans-gender' the more they simply alter the understanding within society of what it means to be a man and therefore expand the understanding of the male gender - so rather than 'leaving male' to become 'female' they take with and expand 'male'

DadJoke · 14/03/2024 15:59

BackToLurk · 14/03/2024 15:33

The notion of 'gender identity' is contested, and even among those who accept the idea of individuals having a 'gender identity' there are multiple theories about how that that identity is recognised, formed, expressed etc. You write as though there is a single definition of 'gender identity'. There isn't.

And yet there are definitions of it on the website of pretty much every single medical and psychological body. There are multiple theories about how sexuality is recognised, formed and expressed, but no one sensible disputes it. Of course it's contested. The existence of it is not disputed, except by gender critical people.

LostInScience · 14/03/2024 15:59

What makes the position of American Academy of Pediatrics (which has finally committed to a systematic review of the evidence of gender care in minors, after several years of insistence from some members) more scientifically sound than the position of Finland, or the UK, which have conducted these systematic review and found the evidence uncertain?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/03/2024 15:54

Agree, @HydraDominatus

MadamVastra · 14/03/2024 15:54

@DadJoke i think you are trying to squat up the wrong tree - just go back to pissing up it instead

HydraDominatus · 14/03/2024 15:49

This reply has been deleted

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popebishop · 14/03/2024 15:38

@DadJoke : is "woman" as a gender matched to "male" sex or "female" sex, in the context of your earlier claim that "The vast majority of people transition because their gender identity does not match their sex assigned at birth"?

If you don't know, and are therefore unsure as to what "transgender" means, do ignore this question.