Hampstead Pond - Brave woman speaks

Then that's the third spaces argument. The women that consent can use the mixed sex space to their heart's content.

Unless you are saying that non consenting women must be forced to submit to men ?

DadJoke · Today 10:02

Gender critical people conflate all women with gender critical women.

Erm... No they don't, you must have seen GC women here criticising those who are pro-trans in women's spaces?

So “quite a lot of women” - not all women in general. That was my point.

You, because if your protected gender critical beliefs, don’t want trans women in women’s spaces. That sentiment does not apply to all women, and your beliefs must be balanced against the rights of trans women and women who do not share your views

In my work and personal life I know a lot of transgender and non-binary people, as well as large numbers of feminist, trans inclusive non-transgender women. Adults of my children’s age are highly supportive of transgender rights, and this attempt to generalise opposition to trans rights as “being for women” rather than a subset of women (and their male allies in the right) is chilling. Seeing supposedly left wing feminists with whom I might agree on most points join the Daily Mail in punching down on a tiny minority is quite disturbing.

The thing about consent: the person who says no, trumps those who say yes.

If men are excluding women by entering their spaces, if there are women who do not consent, that's the end of it. It becomes harassment, exclusion and abuse for those men to continue.

I'm honestly not interested in the words those men may wish to use, because words don't change reality.

The very heart of this is the word 'woman'. Once you start using it to include 'men who say they're women', then it becomes harder to have a meaningful discussion.
When you say things like 'No. They are women who want to swim with women' you are attempting to block the possibility of meaningful discourse.
Or, as Jelly has it, redefining words to suit your narrative.
We're back to George Orwell.

It takes a lot more typing to keep saying 'gender critical women'; I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly often opt for a shortened version, and I wouldn't be surprised if others do too. I think people can fill in the gaps. I certainly can when I read posts by others saying things like 'women want single-sex spaces'.
I also often see posts on here acknowledging that some women have different views.

Personally I generally stick to saying I don't want males in women's spaces. That includes males who identify as women. Why wouldn't it, given that there is no material difference between a man who doesn't say he is a woman and one who does?

Also, it is quite a lot of women who share my view, and they don't all identify as gender critical or even feminist, sorry to burst your bubble @DadJoke

Sure. Gender critical people say things like “women don’t want trans women in women’s spaces” when they mean “gender critical women don’t want trans women in women’s spaces.”

You can’t miss it once you see it.

Here is a great example “Here to bravely fight women on behalf of all trans people. Odd hobby.”

She is conflating gender critical people who post on Mumsnet with all women.

Here to bravely fight women on behalf of all trans people. Odd hobby.

I know some of the women who use the pool and who attended the AGM. We talked about this recently and these women (who I would have assumed are completely feminist) see no problem with trans people using the pool. They have no worries about these poor, confused transwomen using the pool, because in their words "they are born in the wrong body". They are full of the Be Kind bullshit.

I am shocked that this is still the prevalent view among women.

More false dichotomies and misrepresentation from dadjoke. For him this is some kind of spectator sport, I suppose.

Disagreement is not bullying. That definition is the major point of contention between gender critical people and those who support trans rights.

Are you bullying me because you think trans women aren’t women? How would you like me not to offend your sensibilities without disagreeing?

Gender critical people conflate all women with gender critical women
I don't think I know what this means. Can you expand?

Because like a bloke in a Rape Crisis Centre, them knows where them's just a PITA, and is determined to make them's presence felt, because them the most important one.

All hail them.

Why are you here on the feminist board on Mumsnet, Dadjoke?

Gender critical people conflate all women with gender critical women. Of course there are gender critical men. Most gender critical people are men.

theilltemperedclavecinist · Yesterday 16:51

And don't forget the man in the picture - a TW who wants to be in the room while she shares her rape trauma even though he knows she doesn't want him there. WTAF is wrong with him?

I assume that it's because them is a twisted, sadistic bully.

In order to have a rational discussion with someone, you have to have a common language.

Redefining words to suit your narrative is the bully's tactic to win at all costs.

Exactly. It's a women only facility. That excludes males, whatever identity they claim.

I'm looking forward to seeing Counsel explain why it is so important to make sure that a rape victim be refused help unless she lets a man get involved in the process, and why it is only women who are refused a specialised service.

And don't forget the man in the picture - a TW who wants to be in the room while she shares her rape trauma even though he knows she doesn't want him there. WTAF is wrong with him?

Very well said.

There's a hell of a lot wrong with him. And everyone who thinks the main purpose of rape support for women is to provide supply and experiences for men.

Thank you for explaining those points so clearly in contraction of DadJoke’s assertions.

Moreover it's a punishment for denying their ideology.

Instead of the TQ+ political party line of 'ha, we get EVERYTHING and you GET NOTHING, sucks to be you!' grotty toddler style thinking.

Perfectly put! It's childish, entitled and unfair.

It is becoming apparent that legislation is (eventually) going to have to restore and enforce women's equality, because men given the option will just take everything without conscience and stupid women will help them for head pats and good girl cookies.

LA (tax payer) funding absolutely should be conditional on female only facilities being provided, by law, alongside whatever other facilities the LA feels inspired to provide, and I would hope there are accessible options for everyone.

Which is the humane and GC position incidentally. Equal and accessible facilities for all. Instead of the TQ+ political party line of 'ha, we get EVERYTHING and you GET NOTHING, sucks to be you!' grotty toddler style thinking.

Invisible @theilltemperedclavecinist , and our tiny, high-pitched voices can be heard only by (grumpy old) bats . . . .