Hampstead Pond - Brave woman speaks

@DadJoke No, it is made explicit that men are not women and that the former cannot (for very obvious reasons) be a subset of the latter.

Is the hope that if it's repeated long enough that the reality will be created where women here will eventually agree that men are women if they say so?

Because it obviously isn't going to happen, is it?

No. Trans woman implies trans women are a subset of women. TranswomN does not. I wouldn’t say blackwoman.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft excellent questions which are often asked on here and which I’ve yet to see answered by DadJoke or the others who share his belief system.

It's the prevalent view because, unfortunately, the mainstream view has always ignored science and pretended there are unfathomable, mystical essences of masculinity and femininity, possibly located in the brain, and that therefore a "female" can exist in a male body and vice versa.

@negeme I think trans women are women, and won’t refer to them as men.

Why though? Is your definition of a category of person 'Anyone who says they are in that category'? If I say I am 5 years old, does that mean I am? If I say I am Chinese, does that mean I am? If I say I am 6'3", does that mean I am? Why is the question of whether I am male/female any different? You have apparently decided that male/female is no longer a binary based on the fact of physical sex. So what's stopping people deciding that age is no longer based on a person's actual factual age? Can you not see how ridiculous this is?

Absolutely.

Women may or may not be able to become pregnant, carry to term, have a live birth, breastfeed - but we have the potential to do so.

Men don't.

It was members of the Kenwood Ladies Pond Associatiion who attended the AGM in person. So not all pond swimmers and not all KLPA members, only those who turned up to the AGM. All members of the KLPA were told about the AGM.

I've often thought that (but admit I'm one of the worst offenders for responding)/

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why uniquely amongst all species humans can't have words that mean adult female and adult male of that species. Reproductive roles matter.

Saying this doesn't, of course, mean that women and girls are nothing but walking wombs, or that a woman who hasn't had children, or can't have them, is not a real woman, or any of the other nonsense that TRAs and shallow thinkers tend to come out with at this point.

It means that females have bodies organised from conception on around having large gametes, i.e. eggs, a reproductive system capable of gestating a baby and then feeding it with the mother's own milk. I've bolded 'organised' because all we're talking about here is biology and the way our bodies develop and work, not any predestined role (now that in our country at least most women are able to control their fertility if they want to).

I don't know why we waste our time and energy engaging with these men.
If we refuse to do so surely they'll go away..

Not really bothered about being thought of as "nice" by men like Dadjoke 🤷‍♀️

This is still nothing more than a very longwinded and tedious way to say that you think nice women should do what men tell them.

Dadjoke clearly thinks his thought outweighs all the men and women of science who hold that men are men and women are women and immutably so, and he doesn't need any evidence to support his thoughts.
How can he explain this? I may think he is an ignorant idiot, and not offer any evidence, but then he does, so I don't need to.
But he does, and doesn't.
And the Moon is made of green cheese and there are fairies at the bottom of my garden.

‘you think the category “woman” excludes trans woman. I do not. This usually does not matter. When you use the word “woman” I know you are excluding trans women by default. When I say “woman” you know I am including trans women by default‘@DadJoke

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

I’d be interested in reading those statements too.

@DadJoke

Won't somebody think of the lurkers! He understands things well enough to misrepresent them.

Also, I like word games!

We certainly give him a lot of attention.

But then you need to know the other's politics to make sense of the word. And someone who doesn't know either of you is going to interpret what you said based on their own understanding of what the word woman means.
That's not how words work. Which is why we have things like glossaries and definitions and dictionaries etc.

This. I doubt Dadjoke even convinces himself with his own explanations. It's just vapid, fatuous burble to own the women on MN.

I don't know, but I've been swimming regularly there for 25 years and had no idea about the vote, so I don't think it could have been well-publicised among us.

No it doesn't.

"Woman" and "transwoman" is perfectly clear. We all know exactly what is being talked about.

But then you need to know the other's politics to make sense of the word. And someone who doesn't know either of you is going to interpret what you said based on their own understanding of what the word woman means.
That's not how words work. Which is why we have things like glossaries and definitions and dictionaries etc.

DadJoke, I'm really interested; can you supply some statements as theilltemperedclavecinist asks?

(and no, the disquotation property/principle isn't particularly complicated).

Well explained.

@negeme you think the category “woman” excludes trans woman. I do not. This usually does not matter. When you use the word “woman” I know you are excluding trans women by default. When I say “woman” you know I am including trans women by default.

If we are to discuss transgender issues we have to understand these differences. It’s not remotely as complicated as you are making out.

The forbidden term “cisgender” makes the whole thing much more complicated.