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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions
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DadJoke · 08/03/2024 16:06

@JanesLittleGirl

You provided a link to an opinion piece by an employment solicitor and the TRA comic barrister RMW. Seriously? The rest of your post is simple bollocks. Why do you think that the EHRC produced this non-interim guidance? Maybe it was raining and the boys and girls at EHRC couldn't go outside to play so they wrote it to pass the time.

Are you seriously asking why the EHRC produce guidance? I mean, if you can't figure that out, you're a few eggs short of a dozen. They are doing their job.

It makes zero difference to the fact that statutory guidance trumps non-statutory guidance. As to why the non-statutory guidance is so flawed, I have no idea.

Which of these arguments are you unable to follow? That where the statutory COP and the non-statutory one conflict you follow the statutory one? That the statutory one has weight in law and the other doesn't?

To become statutory, the code has to be put before parliament. It then has to pass both houses. That's not going to happen with this non-statutory guidance.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/3/section/14

Equality Act 2006

An Act to make provision for the establishment of the Commission for Equality and Human Rights; to dissolve the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Commission for Racial Equality and the Disability Rights Commission; to make provision about discriminat...

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/3/section/14

Froodwithatowel · 08/03/2024 15:43

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 15:27

So, you would pick another charity which supports your goals better. Me, too. You would, for example, refuse to donate to almost any rape crisis centre except Beira’s Place, I would do the opposite.

Which charity which wants to end VAWG meets your criteria?

Did you actually read my post or just not understand it?

Or are you saying that you would exclusively support services that have a policy of excluding and denying help to women who cannot access mixed sex provision to punish them for their sins?

JanesLittleGirl · 08/03/2024 15:29

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 13:46

I have illustrated no such thing.

The non-statutory guidance has no standing in law, the statutory guidance does. If they contradict each other (which they do in this COP) then you would be a fool to follow the non-statutory guidance. In fact, you are always better off following the statutory guidance and ignoring the interim non-statutory guidance altogether.

A service provider cannot use “I followed the non-statutory guidance” as a defence in court. That does not apply to the statutory guidance.

It will never replace the statutory guidance because much of the advice and examples are unlawful.

Even then, the EqA and case law associated with it is still the real source.

https://www.penningtonslaw.com/news-publications/latest-news/2022/recent-ehrc-guidance-on-single-sex-or-separate-sex-services-provides-little-clarity-for-the-sports-sector

https://www.parliament.scot/-/media/files/committees/equalities-human-rights-and-civil-justice-committee/correspondence/2022/briefing-note-from-robin-white-on-ehrc-guidance.pdf

You provided a link to an opinion piece by an employment solicitor and the TRA comic barrister RMW. Seriously? The rest of your post is simple bollocks. Why do you think that the EHRC produced this non-interim guidance? Maybe it was raining and the boys and girls at EHRC couldn't go outside to play so they wrote it to pass the time.

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 15:27

Froodwithatowel · 08/03/2024 14:59

Certainly. IF they provided, as part of those services, female only provision for women who cannot access mixed sex provision. I am all for accessible, equal facilities for everyone.

If however the price of receiving women's services is a forced pretence that some men are women, and mixed sex services in the fiction that they are single sex? Then no. I would not help fund prejudiced, exclusionary services being made punitive and inaccessible to women in order to support a political position that centres men.

So, you would pick another charity which supports your goals better. Me, too. You would, for example, refuse to donate to almost any rape crisis centre except Beira’s Place, I would do the opposite.

Which charity which wants to end VAWG meets your criteria?

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 15:12

maltravers · 08/03/2024 14:48

Turning the question round to @DadJoke would you offer financial support to a charity set up for biological women only, or does TRA politics come first?

It’s a factor, but it’s theoretical.

Given the choice of a charity which is trans-inclusive and one which is not, I’d chose the trans-inclusive one. Likewise, I’d rather give money to secular aid charities than religious ones. It’s not been an issue because the vast majority of charities set up in aid of women are trans-inclusive, and none that I have considered have turned out trans-exclusive.

In the unlikely event there was a cause which I really supported where there was no option but to donate to a trans-exclusive one, I would donate.

Froodwithatowel · 08/03/2024 14:59

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 14:14

And would you give money to an organisation which opposes VAWG if they included trans women amongst the people they support?

Certainly. IF they provided, as part of those services, female only provision for women who cannot access mixed sex provision. I am all for accessible, equal facilities for everyone.

If however the price of receiving women's services is a forced pretence that some men are women, and mixed sex services in the fiction that they are single sex? Then no. I would not help fund prejudiced, exclusionary services being made punitive and inaccessible to women in order to support a political position that centres men.

crockofshite · 08/03/2024 14:59

DadJoke · 07/03/2024 20:55

I think trans women are a subset of women. You do not. We are not going to change each other’s minds. The purpose of this aside (which I did not instigate) was to suggest that in order to discuss transgender issues, people who support trans rights and gender critical people will need to accept that these two groups use different definitions.

I am not interested in a further derail into definitions of women.

Can you give examples of other sub sets of women? Apart from men who call themselves trans?

maltravers · 08/03/2024 14:48

Turning the question round to @DadJoke would you offer financial support to a charity set up for biological women only, or does TRA politics come first?

RebelliousCow · 08/03/2024 14:18

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 14:14

And would you give money to an organisation which opposes VAWG if they included trans women amongst the people they support?

I'd prefer to give my money to an organsisation which centres women and girls - certainly if women and girls is my main concern. Let those more concerned with trans rights donate to a charity which centres males who identify as women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 14:17

I've supported other mixed sex charities.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 14:16

It depends on many things. I wouldn't rule it out.

RebelliousCow · 08/03/2024 14:16

What is quite remarkable is the way in which any contemporary political movement ( be that women's rights/trans rights/climate change) feels it is immediately privileged if its tags on to an anti-racist/white privilege soap box.

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 14:14

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 14:10

I take advice from feminists around the world. Some are white, some are brown, some are black. From lots of very different places. The one thing they have in common, is that they are real feminist women, centring women and girls, unlike the many cynical pretenders of both sexes.

And would you give money to an organisation which opposes VAWG if they included trans women amongst the people they support?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 14:10

I take advice from feminists around the world. Some are white, some are brown, some are black. From lots of very different places. The one thing they have in common, is that they are real feminist women, centring women and girls, unlike the many cynical pretenders of both sexes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 14:05

Yes, Hibo is inspiring.

ArabellaScott · 08/03/2024 14:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 14:02

Anyway, Happy International Women's Day from a brilliant FGM activist who gets abuse from trans rights activists for refusing to acknowledge gender identity ideology as a real or meaningful issue in her fight against an exclusively female form of oppression.

x.com/hibowardere/status/1765894161935261810?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

Oh, gosh. Happy IWD, Hibo. What a beautiful woman and a beautiful message.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/03/2024 14:04

ArabellaScott · 08/03/2024 13:48

It's funny, Dadjoke, but every time I see a post from you lately I get the Archers theme song playing in my head. Cannot explain it.

The Archers threadstarter in me is irked by this. Harrumph.

DadJoke · 08/03/2024 14:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 12:15

As we know, Dadjoke won't even give money to FGM activists he doesn't approve of, unless his white feminist friends do. Much intersectionality.

I gave money to the Orchid Project, which works with Hibo Wardere, who is not a white feminist. I asked a journalist who spent three months on the ground which charity she recommended. Don’t you take the advice of white feminists every day?

Why not take time off from misrepresenting me, and donate here? I will match your donation up to £100.

I’ll take your word you have done it.

https://www.orchidproject.org/get-involved/donate/#donate

Donate - Orchid Project

https://www.orchidproject.org/get-involved/donate/#donate

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 14:02

Anyway, Happy International Women's Day from a brilliant FGM activist who gets abuse from trans rights activists for refusing to acknowledge gender identity ideology as a real or meaningful issue in her fight against an exclusively female form of oppression.

x.com/hibowardere/status/1765894161935261810?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/03/2024 13:59

ArabellaScott · 08/03/2024 13:58

Dadjoke doing LAPS

😂

And it goes on ad infinitum!

Edited to add the Latin bit.

TRAs love a bit of Latin.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 13:59

Grin Arabella

Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 13:59

As I said it's a way for you to pretend to look more authoritative than you actually are.

ArabellaScott · 08/03/2024 13:58

Dadjoke doing LAPS

someone represent GIF
Ereshkigalangcleg · 08/03/2024 13:58

I have addressed substance countless times. Many more times than you've explained why I should believe a male can be a woman @DadJoke

ArabellaScott · 08/03/2024 13:58

Emotionalsupportviper · 08/03/2024 13:55

😂

Funny, that.

I get the Benny Hill one.

Dammit, that's catchy.

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