Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

😂

plus the old

'women do it too!'
'I am a woman and I am alright Jack, I am absolutely fine with it'

And the completely inconsistent 'my friend got a piece of paper so now I am fine with them being in a single sex space. Without that piece of paper, no way!'

I could spend time finding evidence but I have no wish to. No amount of statistics are going to persuade me that it's OK to misgender and discriminate against trans people. This will be seen as a flounce, but I don't care. This debate is bad for my blood pressure and will get no one anywhere. I wish I'd never engaged. Crow about 'winning the argument' all you want but the real argument is not on mumsnet, and in the real world these matters are still very much in flux.

TRAs must order their Calamine in bulk.

Yep. A straw man got built right there.

That there was a very weak attempt at distraction and deflection.

'nefarious ends', - not putting rapists in women's prison, maintaining the integrity of female sport, not forcing little girls into toilets with boys, not having my elderly mother forced into her toileting needs with a man, not allowing the police force to use men to do strip searches on women and girls.

Can I suggest you Google the actual meaning of nefarious.

Along with all the other words that you've learnt from George Orwell.

I wonder whether it's the leaks from the appalling WPATH that has initiated these desperate attempts to persuade women on here that we're all transpohobes?
Claiming that single sex spaces never really existed and that saying no to random men who require access to women and girls when undressed makes us big old meanies.
Plus every single box ticked on that old bingo card 😂

nope, this is just more deflection. Please provide that evidence to support that the risk of a committing a sex offence is lower for a male person at any point in their transition compared to the general male population.

And if you find that, please then provide evidence that that risk is then lower than or the same as a female person.

Perhaps some of us with experience of violence and coercion find it trivialises and disrespects our experiences to have them used in this way for nefarious ends.

It's not for "nefarious ends" though, it's for the rights of other women and girls. And your feelings about how your experience of violence and coercion is talked about in the public square don't trump mine about mine.

It's not anti feminist to acknowledge this.

I'm well aware of that. You have no idea of my personal history. Perhaps some of us with experience of violence and coercion find it trivialises and disrespects our experiences to have them used in this way for nefarious ends. Experience which has nothing to do with trans women.

Sounds to me like, after being presented with various arguments, scenarios and evidence that are difficult to refute, you are perhaps starting to suspect that your gender beliefs aren't quite as straightforward to defend as you'd hoped, and you're attempting to distract instead of trying to robustly address this criticism.

Here you go

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/offender-management-statistics-quarterly

from Claire's site.

https://www.sexsegregation.org.uk/home

She takes care with her statistics. But feel free to contact her and tell her why you disagree with her. I think she would love to chat with you about it.

I think far more women commit sexual offences against children than we have historically assumed.

Please cite your peer reviewed papers on it.

Plus my aunt looks like Charles Bronson, so men must watch women changing.

How's that feminism working out for you?

🤣

I'm not wading into the 'they're all rapists and paedos' territory. It's disgusting discourse that should be limited to 4chan, not a feminist forum.

Just pointing out for lurkers that absolutely no one said this, it's an invention of this poster in their good faith debate.

So far on this thread we have:

-it's fine for women to have to get naked in front of trans identifying males
-aha! male cleaners means there aren't any women's toilets anyway!
-nobody can prove that men commit the vast majority of sex offences

I'm not sure the word "insanity" even covers it.

I think far more women commit sexual offences against children than we have historically assumed.

I said anti trans campaigners were using other women's trauma, not that victims were.

Many of the women you write off as "anti trans campaigners" are victims. Like JK Rowling for instance. That's why this issue is important for them (and I include myself in that). We've always talked about this in our "particular corner" that you dislike so much.

And this is a straw man and it is sparple.

No one is making any such declaration at all.

lol.

And yet, on this thread you have dismissed female people's trauma and their religious needs.

I said anti trans campaigners were using other women's trauma, not that victims were.

Some women who aren't in prison, who aren't traumatised by rape, who aren't being beaten nightly in a coercive relationship will campaign on behalf of those who are.

Ok? Is that alright with you?

Or will equal pay only to go to those women who campaigned for it? Is it all right to rape women within marriage, because they didn't show up for the march?

And you must know, if you're on mumsnet for any length of time, that an extraordinary significant percentage of women here have been raped, beaten, assaulted. A nanosecond on the relationships board will tell you that.

Although, I strongly suspect that the only women you would like to hear from are those with no hope, no chance and no voice.

I'm not wading into the 'they're all rapists and paedos' territory. It's disgusting discourse that should be limited to 4chan, not a feminist forum.