Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

The trans man is not being 'excluded' they are able to use the facilities for their sex, the same as every other person. We are discussing not giving the trans man special privileges which impinge on the boys rights to privacy.

Words have meaning.

Am I being 'excluded' if I can't go an under 18s youth group? What about my child, is he being excluded by pubs not serving him alcohol? No. We're having the law applied to us inthe same way as it applies to everyone.

I think that @ForCoralFox believes the echo chamber that they have found themselves in, because everyone I know thinks this is a load of regressive nonsense that is harmful to girls and women. No one thinks that a trans woman is any kind of woman because they are not, woman is not a feeling it's a sex class. Trans women who choose to use single sex spaces for women are acting as typical male aggressors by entering into what should be single sex spaces when it is clear to them that their presence has an impact on the safety and dignity of females.

Because of course, is not necessary for trans women to use women's single sex spaces, the decent ones, like all decent males stay away from those spaces.

We know that some trans women are acting out a fetish by being in women's single sex spaces because they have told us that validation is part of it. Does your mother know that @ForCoralFox or are you shielding her from the more unsavoury aspects of what you are advocating for?

It's not the correct toilet though, for a girl.

The trans boy who someone's son wishes be denied access to the correct toilet.

In the 90s polls persistently showed that the majority of the population believed it was morally wrong to be gay. That changed very quickly, over about ten or fifteen years. I do think that gender critical feminists have been quite successful at creating a climate more hostile to trans people, but I would not assume that this will remain the case. It's dependent on many different factors, but it can't be taken for granted.

I suggest you clarify what you mean here.

Why do you think sex realism is cruel?

Isn't the multiple safeguarding failures gender ideology has brought about for all women (including those trans men) cruel?

What about lying to young people way before the age of majority that experimental drugs are reversible and cross sex hormones won't destroy their fertility and sexual functions - isn't that cruel?

**edited for clarity

We're not discussing any "exclusion" of a "trans man" we are discussing boys not be allowed the privacy of a single sex space. If the female person was "excluded" there wouldn't be a problem for them.

We are literally at this moment also discussing the exclusion of a trans man.

I think that you should also have a look at the YouGov polling data.

What has become clear over several different polls over the years is that as soon as someone understands that a 'transgender woman' may still have a penis, the polls switches very decisively to reject their presence in any single sex space.

It is also very clear that the UK population, as other country's polls also discover, does not support male inclusion in the female sports categories.

I think that you don't seem to know what the rest of the UK thinks and you have made that perfectly clear on this thread today.

Urinating in front of others isn't privacy, regardless of the sex or gender of the other people nearby. I doubt the poor trans kid is giving your son and his friends a second glance, but I bet he doesn't find being at school with them a pleasant experience, if they are happy to express their views openly.

You can't just state your personal view as a fact. Most people prefer single sex spaces. Why are the feelings of a girl who identifies as a boy more important than those of multiple boys?

Well none of them liked the separatists, who were always a minority.

This is just another demonstration of the emotionally manipulative tactic in use.

Yes, it's a good example of the kind of things HJ is talking about in the OP article which hasn't really been properly discussed.

Urinating in front of others isn't privacy, regardless of the sex or gender of the other people nearby. I doubt the poor trans kid is giving your son and his friends a second glance, but I bet he doesn't find being at school with them a pleasant experience, if they are happy to express their views openly.

This is interesting. Because a male person is not be 'excluded' from female single sex spaces on the basis of being 'transgender'. Because those female single sex spaces are open to female transgender people if they want to use them.

A male person is being excluded on the basis of being a male human. It is actually that simple.

And when extreme trans rights activists use 'exclusion' and 'ostracism' as reasons for inclusion of male people into female single sex spaces, this results in them ignoring that exclusion and the ostracism of those female people who need and expect that space to be as it is labelled - a female single sex space.

This is just another demonstration of the emotionally manipulative tactic in use.

There is no symmetry in these arguments. It is all based on one thing. The prioritisation of a group of male people over female people. This is not feminist in any way.

Though I think they may represent more than you may think.

You should check the polling for anyone over 40. Young people are by far the largest groups who subscribe to your ideology. Your mother doesn't appear to have explained to you particularly well what second wave feminism was about, so I'm afraid I doubt her credentials.

Love how you think a mother can influence a teenage son and all his friends.

Do you know nothing about teenagers? They mostly do the opposite of what their mothers say!

And it's not toxic masculinity for a male to want privacy ffs.

You don't think you may have influenced your son taking such a prejudiced view of a fellow student?

I don't think anecdotal evidence of one small group of friends' toxic masculinity defines a generation. But there are mixed views in all age groups. My 70 year old mother and her friends, who came of age as 2nd wave feminists in the 70s, are bemused and horrified by gender critical feminism and it's cruelty. But they probably don't represent all women their age. Though I think they may represent more than you may think.

Oh God I came here to read about Helen Joyce, not to re read the same tired old logic-less TRA arguments again. It's so tedious. I wish some of these people would just read what has already been discussed multiple times on this board, not come steaming in with the same tatty old straw men and think they have a gotcha.

Well done to those who can still be bothered to make the same well reasoned arguments in response, stirling work.

Have to agree with you there - the GRR bill being rejected because it was poor legislation and 'Stonewall law' being challenged has been an encouraging step forward.

'Also, trans women who are violent sexual offenders could constitute a risk in men's prisons too. It's not those are places free from sexual assault.'

Any male prisoner that is categorised as at risk of harm should be protected as all other vulnerable male prisoners.

So let's say we have two males who have been convicted of animal cruelty each for torturing and killing a cat, and have both received custodial sentences. One of these males calls himself a man, the other male calls himself a woman. That's the only significant difference between them.

You want the latter male to be incarcerated in a women's prison, but not the former male. Why? Justify this please. Also imagine you are having to explain this view of yours to the women in the prison you want to send one of these males to. How do you think they might feel about it?

Blimey you want to talk to my teenage son and his friends. They all think that gender is a load of navel gazing bollocks.

They're sick to the teeth of it being rammed down their throats in PSHE or whatever it's called nowadays.

There is a trans boy (teenage female) using the boys toilets in college, it makes them so uncomfortable to have a female walk past them using the urinal.

I don't think any of them think what you believe in is 'progress'.

Progress isn't irreversible. Women's rights were progressive. Sex stereotype based zealotry is not.

If you cannot provide the evidence that a male at any point of their transition has a lower level of risk in committing a sex offence, you cannot logically make that argument.

Do you not understand that logic of that question at all?

If you cannot provide evidence to the contrary, all male people should be treated equally. Therefore, where there is a single sex provision, ALL male people are to be excluded.

The logic is also based on history. Historically, sub groups of male people were excluded from the risk model needed for robust safeguarding. That allowed a loop hold which caused others harm. Now, no sub groups of male people should be treated differently for these decisions.

Therefore, unless it is a completely mixed sex prison, no male person should be included in the female prison estate.