Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

693 replies

RethinkingLife · 02/03/2024 10:16

A bracing read. I am still in a state of some despair about how long this will take. As several people have observed, in the last 10 days, the BBC (in common with other media) disseminated unscientific propaganda that male galactorrhea is better than mother’s milk, repeatedly called a deeply disturbed killer a woman while disdaining to acknowledge the alternate reality as a cat, and has publicly reprimanded Justin Webb for plain speaking that was probably helpful to many listeners.

What will it take to bring bigoted employers to heel? Part of the answer is time. During the past decade, the trans lobby has been stunningly successful in selling false analogies to HR departments: that separate toilets for men and women are like racial segregation; and that insisting people can change sex is “gay rights 2.0”.
Lazy, power-hungry HR managers and staff working in “EDI” (equality, diversity and inclusion) pronounce that the arc of the moral universe is bending towards denying sexual dimorphism, and relish imposing their will on others.
…
Imagine you’re an HR professional belatedly wondering if you’ve got the wrong end of the stick on the whole sex-gender thing. You might turn to A Practical Guide to Transgender Law by two barristers, Nicola Newbegin and transwoman Robin Moira White.
But that might not save you from serious missteps. The first edition, published before the binding Forstater judgment, enthusiastically endorsed the faulty lower court ruling. The second grudgingly acknowledged that yes, gender-critical beliefs were protected, but claimed that “manifesting” them — letting others know you held them — wasn’t.
Even before the recent string of judgments to the contrary, that was obvious nonsense. The law about freedom of belief expressly includes “manifestation”. And anyway, it takes but a moment’s thought to realise that the law can’t possibly concern beliefs that are never manifested, since it can’t reach inside the privacy of our heads.
…
At bottom, the mindset of the narcissistic identitarians joining in workplace witch-hunts is that of the Crusaders, who made converts at the point of a sword. They do not respect other people’s sovereign consciences, nor accept that their belief system is just one among many. And like the Crusaders, they need to be consigned to history.

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time/

Adding in a good read about the Meade and Phoenix rulings:

Restoring sanity takes time | Helen Joyce | The Critic Magazine

This article is taken from the March 2024 issue of The Critic. To get the full magazine why not subscribe? Right now we’re offering five issues for just £10. It’s nearly five years since I met Maya…

https://thecritic.co.uk/restoring-sanity-takes-time

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
nothingcomestonothing · 06/03/2024 12:56

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:52

This is just facile.

How? If you truly believe, as you said, that people's subjective sense of self is more important, then you surely support me in my subject sense of being a 7 year old, despite my in fact being a middle aged woman. How is my belief that I'm something I'm physically, provably not any different to a males belief that he is something he physically provably is not?

Edited cos autocarrot

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:52

I said it was the disingenuous nature of your discourse I had an issue with, I didn't say it was sinister in any way @ForCoralFox

I don't think I was disingenuous. The definitions of misogyny in this thread just aren't misogyny, that's all.

Waitwhat23 · 06/03/2024 12:55

izimbra · 06/03/2024 12:49

The anti trans discourse reminds me of the conundrum about a tree falling in a forest.

You should experiment - stop talking about and thinking about trans women for a year. At the end of that year consider the ways in which the existence of trans women has materially impacted on your life and the lives of other women, without all the psychic noise created by your own angry voices.

It's now gotten to a point, given the amount of evidence to the harm to women and girls safety and dignity (prisons, sports, rape crisis services, hospital wards, gender clinics etc) by the determined attacks on the single sex exemptions allowed in the EQA 2010, that ignorance is no longer an excuse.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:53

Like many of your points.

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:52

nothingcomestonothing · 06/03/2024 12:49

What does 'feeling like a woman' feel like? How do you know you're doing it? How do I know I'm doing it?

If you truly believe that 'people's subjective sense of self is more important' you'll be fine with me identifying as a 7 year old and joining your kids class, right? I'm going to absolutely sweep the board in the spelling test, and sports day, but my subjective sense of self is more important so my classmates are just bigots who need to mind their own business and stop trying to oppress me. Right?

This is just facile.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:52

I said it was the disingenuous nature of your discourse I had an issue with, I didn't say it was sinister in any way @ForCoralFox

DadJoke · 06/03/2024 12:51

@OldCrone the "causes" of sexuality and gender identity are very complex. Both have a genetic component. Neither are a "belief" in the sense that being gender critical is a belief. The sad case of David Reimer demonstrates in the instrinsic nature of gender identity even in cisgender people. He "knew" he was a man. I don't think you would argue that this was social contagion or a transmitted belief. There is no simple unitary explanation. Twin studies suggest a genetic component, which gives the lie to the idea that it's a "belief" rather than something inherent. It would be a useful starting point, at least, for gender critical people to acknowledge this, even if they don't accept that transgender people should be accommodated. This is going to keep happening, whatever the law is, despite Joyce's comments that all transgender people, happy or otherwise are "a problem in a sane world" and the number should be "reduced."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-022-17749-0

Transgender people are what they are, and this is not a new phenomenon. Acceptance of transgender people, and people having labels for their internal sense of self have enabled people to come out. There wasn't a huge increase in left-handed people when being left-handed became acceptable, and there wasn't a huge increase in gay people when being gay became legal.

Being gender non-conforming and being transgender are not neccessarily related. "Wanting to be a boy" is not the same as "being a boy." Destransitioning in adults is very rare, and regret rates for gender confirmation surgery is lower than almost every other procedure.

AGP has also been thoroughly discredited, and nutpicking trans women who fit your profile, does not provide any evidence.

The major so-called study on social contagion is the RODG study. The paper initially proposing the concept was based on self-selected surveys of parents of transgender youth recruited from three anti-trans websites, with one likely trans-supportive Facebook group. It would be like doing a political poll by asking people on primarily pro-Tory websites.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/there-is-no-evidence-that-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-exists

There Is No Evidence That Rapid-Onset Gender Dysphoria Exists

A new, unsubstantiated label is being given to transgender youth that suggests they falsely believe they are transgender due to social influence, trauma, and experiences of sexual objectification.

https://psychcentral.com/lib/there-is-no-evidence-that-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-exists

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:50

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:45

You came in here all faux innocent, "why do these women believe this thing". Interesting and predictable to see you do have skin in the game @ForCoralFox

Is it sinister to take an issue with these things whilst also knowing people personally affected? As it happens I felt much the same before I knew any trans people personally, but even if knowing some had changed my mind, would that be wrong?

Quite a few people on this forum say they became interested in these issues because their children are trans and they don't like it. Does their 'skin in the game' mean they shouldn't comment?

nothingcomestonothing · 06/03/2024 12:49

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:35

I'm no expert. I was born a woman and have always felt like a woman, despite that being an often unpleasant experience. People have a sense of self in all sorts of ways that aren't rooted in tangible, biological facts. The current battle, surely, is between people like yourself who feel that biology is the overriding consideration, and people like myself who feel that people's subjective sense of self is more important.

What does 'feeling like a woman' feel like? How do you know you're doing it? How do I know I'm doing it?

If you truly believe that 'people's subjective sense of self is more important' you'll be fine with me identifying as a 7 year old and joining your kids class, right? I'm going to absolutely sweep the board in the spelling test, and sports day, but my subjective sense of self is more important so my classmates are just bigots who need to mind their own business and stop trying to oppress me. Right?

izimbra · 06/03/2024 12:49

The anti trans discourse reminds me of the conundrum about a tree falling in a forest.

You should experiment - stop talking about and thinking about trans women for a year. At the end of that year consider the ways in which the existence of trans women has materially impacted on your life and the lives of other women, without all the psychic noise created by your own angry voices.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:48

should be had about how to make sure that women who are told they should be minding their own business

One wonders why anyone would possibly imagine that this movement is misogynistic @Helleofabore

Helleofabore · 06/03/2024 12:46

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:44

I think people should mind their own business and not constantly be looking out for people around them to ostracise.

Edited

I think people should consider that there are other people who have needs that are just as important and therefore discussions should be had about how to make sure that women who are told they should be minding their own business have their needs met too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:45

You came in here all faux innocent, "why do these women believe this thing". Interesting and predictable to see you do have skin in the game @ForCoralFox

Helleofabore · 06/03/2024 12:44

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:42

Drawing historical and cultural comparisons is perfectly legitimate.

Not in a discussion about the UK and how laws and social contracts were formed.

UK single sex spaces were created based on safety and privacy and dignity.

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:44

Waitwhat23 · 06/03/2024 12:42

I'm not suggesting it would have been OK to do so before she gained her GRC, by the way.

I don't even know what to say. Do you believe in fairies and unicorns too? The magic in that piece of paper!

I think people should mind their own business and not constantly be looking out for people around them to ostracise.

andforthatminuteablackbirdsang · 06/03/2024 12:43

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:10

It is not centering the male person, it is centering the whole person over their biology, which is the opposite of misogyny. The purpose of feminism is to bring an end to people being defined by their sex, not to entrench divisions further.

We've gone to far with the whole 'lived experience" as a criteria for just about everything. It's important, but not the only factor.

Let me correct that for you. The purpose of feminism is to bring an end to people being disadvantaged because of their sex.

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:42

Helleofabore · 06/03/2024 12:39

We are talking about this society.

Please do not use other culture's to leverage male people into female single sex spaces.

Drawing historical and cultural comparisons is perfectly legitimate.

Waitwhat23 · 06/03/2024 12:42

I'm not suggesting it would have been OK to do so before she gained her GRC, by the way.

I don't even know what to say. Do you believe in fairies and unicorns too? The magic in that piece of paper!

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:42

I would be furious if anyone challenged her in a toilet. As long as she's not committing a crime, her gender is no one else's business.

I don't believe in "gender" as distinct from sex, and in a single sex space, males being there is absolutely my business.

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:42

Ingenieur · 06/03/2024 12:39

Sex is the basis on which women are historically oppressed.

Gender is the mechanism of that oppression.

No. Gender had been instrumentalised against women, along with many other things.

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:40

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:35

A trans woman I know is a butch lesbian into many traditionally male pursuits, who dresses in androgynous clothing.

How would anyone know this person purports to be a woman? If they walk into a female space, why would women know they claim to be a "woman"? They just sound like the average man, with special pronouns. How is this person a woman?

To my mortification I didn't know when I first met her, and used the wrong pronouns. She is legally a woman though, and it's not for me to question that. I would be furious if anyone challenged her in a toilet. As long as she's not committing a crime, her gender is no one else's business. (I'm not suggesting it would have been OK to do so before she gained her GRC, by the way.)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:40

Sex is the basis on which women are historically oppressed.

Gender is the mechanism of that oppression.

Quite.

Helleofabore · 06/03/2024 12:39

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:25

That is not why there have been separate spaces for men and women historically in some societies. That was due to religion, not biology.

We are talking about this society.

Please do not use other culture's to leverage male people into female single sex spaces.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 06/03/2024 12:39

I'm no expert.

Yes, that's clear. You waffle some evasive stuff about "gender roles" evolving in complex ways but you can't define them. Why is that? It doesn't seem like you are engaging with people's arguments.

All these "gender roles" are based on biological sex.

Ingenieur · 06/03/2024 12:39

ForCoralFox · 06/03/2024 12:22

The question is not whether the sex binary is real (I'm not a scientist so won't comment) but whether it actually matters. Many feminists, myself included, believe that gender roles, not biology, are the basis of women's oppression.

Sex is the basis on which women are historically oppressed.

Gender is the mechanism of that oppression.