Restoring Sanity Takes Time - Helen Joyce

Because I'm a woman & you don't speak for me, or for my daughter.

As I said unless words mean things you could be a man, and father of a son according to your ideology.

Being naked in a room with a trans woman is not a violation of privacy or dignity or safety. Some are sex offenders but they need to be dealt with as individuals, without collective punishment.

Oh dear.... and you wonder why that is?

You don't think that female people had issues with male people entering their toilet's previously and were ignored? Gosh.... it is like # metoo never happened.....

That's fine. You can go in all the mixed sex spaces you want.

This hardly a woman here who won't advocate for a third space that you and your daughter can enjoy with men.

I'm glad this thread is such an object demonstration of Helen Joyce's statement. Restoring Sanity Takes Time, indeed.

That's because until a few years ago men were not emboldened to behave like this, and women were not actively discouraged from expressing concern.

I have been in some rough pubs in my time but never saw pissed up lairy blokes singing football chants deliberately target the ladies loos.

"Yes, those men should have stayed out of women's spaces and putting tremendous pressure on women to accept it. Because we can't and don't."

For the sake of accuracy you need to say 'because some women can't and won't'

Because I'm a woman & you don't speak for me, or for my daughter.

The reason there are female only spaces are for the privacy, dignity and safety of women and girls. If they have men in them they are not single sex.

"Bathroom laws" are a last resort. But as these males increasingly refuse to self-exclude from spaces designated as female-only, it may necessarily to legislate as a preventative measure against this intrusive male dominance behaviour.

Fuck me, why is this so difficult.

That's why they have the sign

For women. Of which there are different definitions, depending on who you ask. Either way, no individual has to 'consent' to others being in there.

"We know what it is that a female person 'needs' and that is a space to be single sex when it is expected to be single sex."

Given that women are vastly more likely to find herself sharing a single sex space with a male cleaner than a trans person, maybe you need to expand your campaign to exclude male cleaners from women's spaces.

Yes, those men should have stayed out of women's spaces and putting tremendous pressure on women to accept it. Because we can't and don't.

A public space by definition is for all people, of whatever sex. A female-only space excludes non-females so is not a public space.

Who are these "particular groups" and why don't you think women cared about men in their spaces before it was talked about in the media? It was certainly talked about here on MN, do a search. The U.K. movement owes MN a lot.

Sorry? You are really not clear here?

They have a notification out that the space is now no longer a single sex space because they are there. Therefore female people who need that space can choose not to enter that space. Female people who are ok with that space being temporarily mixed sex will enter.

The issue is when female people believe they are in a space that has no male people and that no male people will enter while they are there then finding out that they were wrong. And not because a cleaner came in while they were there.

Lol

Of course consent doesn't only relate to sexual acts. It's a word. It means to give permission for something.

You seem to want to make sure that women and girls aren't in a position where they can withhold permission from a man who wants to watch them be naked.

Unless it's a legal requirement???

That mask fell pretty quick, eh?

as I said, it's a misogyny magnet.

And I really love the, er, feminism that says women who have been raped by men are not allowed to exclude them from their spaces, lest they be considered lying liars who weaponise their trauma.

I don't remember anybody caring about any of this until particular groups started stirring it all up a few years ago.

If it's in a public building, it's a public space.

For female people. Not males.

Do you want "bathroom laws?"

No. I want men with special identities to stop being told it's ok to use our spaces. And for there to be social pressure for them not to do so.

If it's in a public building, it's a public space.

Do you want "bathroom laws?"

We know what it is that a female person 'needs' and that is a space to be single sex when it is expected to be single sex.

That is the priority.

A male person can use the male single sex space. A female cannot. No male person above the age of 8 'needs' to use a female single sex space. They have their own

If they cannot use that male single sex space because other male people are there, they need to address this. Coming into a female single sex space is not a solution. It never was. Either a campaign to improve the safety in a male single sex space is needed, or, a third space is needed.

"A male cleaner in a female single sex space will have a sign out saying they are cleaning the space. So too will a maintenance person"

But then enter these spaces when women are in them.

And they're male.

Their maleness in a female space is the problem isn't it?

It's not about what they're doing.

Do you think that all transgender people are breaking the law

We don't have "bathroom laws" in this country so it doesn't arise. Nice pivot though.