Pro-trans and feminist

I think the problem is that "feminist" means whatever you want it to.

If a person is Christian they would definitely believe in God and believe Jesus was the son of God. Beyond that there will be all sorts of variations for particular flavours of Christianity, and the odd person defying this definition but people could reasonably say they weren't Christian.

Feminism seems to involve the belief that women should have equal human rights and opportunities that men have, But when the definition of women has been corrupted to mean women or men, it's not clear what feminism means.

When some women prioritise men saying they are women over actual women and call it feminism we are living in topsy-turvy world.

Yeah that's what I thought, sounded like they only wanted to help people who were intentionally homeless or something.

When used in the context of sex, it clarifies that it's a big fat hairy lie for me and everyone knows it, so I don't mind "identify" in that context. "They identify" also makes it quite clear that it's an individuals own perception, and not that of the society around them. I don't identify as a woman, I just am one. If one needs to explain to others how one sees oneself, it's a very clear concession that one understands full well that nobody else wears the same magic glasses as one does.

It's weird in a homeless situation. Makes it sound like a choice they've made.

I think the word identifies has become so tainted, it's difficult to use it for its intended purpose.

For example, I came across the phrase 'identifies as homeless' the other day, and just thought WTAF? On further reflection it makes sense as there are many definitions of homeless eg literally on the street, in a hostel, sofa surfing etc and this was WRT an organisation offering help to anyone who needs it.

But the use of the word 'identifies' now just means to me 'someone who actually isn't that thing. But says they are' . I'm sure I'm not alone in this.
Which would make it difficult to, for example, fundraise for an organisation helping people who 'identify as homeless'.

It's muddying language and creasing confusion.

I don't really count women who actively centre men in feminism as "feminist" Dadjoke, so there is that.

Why is everyone "identifying" as things these days, instead of just "being" things?

But I guess the difference is between 'identifies as a feminist' and 'would reasonably be seen as one by people who've actually thought about it'.

I'm not sure how you can really be a feminist if you're not gc. You can't be centring women if you don't know what a woman is and you can't argue that you're against all forms of discrimination when you're promoting discrimination against females. It all baffles me tbh. I think we are in an era when people are managing their self image very closely so more interested in looking like they're doing the right thing than actually doing it.

There were 5000 people in the survey and of those, 2050 identified as feminists. - a very large number for a survey of this kind. It's the answers the feminists gave which are important.

By all means, post more data on the views of feminists in the UK. Anecdotally, I suspect the proportion of gender critical feminists you know is close to 100%, for me, it's close to 0%. That's why polling data is so important.

I mean you can look at women's organisations and see which are trans-inclusive and their membership, I suppose. That would include almost every single rape crisis centre, almost all women's charities, the Women's Institute, the Ladies Circle, and exclude GC organisations such as Filia, Sex Matters, FWS and LGB Alliance.

What proportion of feminists do you think are gender critical?

Poor DadJoke, you still dont get it. A survey in which more than half the people didnt see the labels as applying to them means you actually have very small numbers to "analyse".

Then it's an American survey - pretty irrelevant to the uk because American is a more religious country and a more divided one.

Still I guess you could find a few interesting things to comment on, like how people said they were fed up of rabbiting on about pronouns ( I paraphrase), how they didnt want kids being indoctrinated and especially not in the lower grades.

Since America is different to the uk you'd also have to split out responses to see if opinions on e.g. whether kids were being indoctrinated differed between states since some have different laws to others. The differences between countries in the uk are less pronounced than the differences between US states.

It's all more of the same.

Words can say anything when they're divorced of actual meaning and used to mean what you want them to.

Feminist doesn't actually mean 'supporter of women's rights' it means 'anyone who identifies as one'

Woman doesn't mean XX chromosomes....

I'm so glad the men have arrived to tell us we aren't doing feminism properly.

I agree. More of us need to come forward.

And yes, most people don't self-describe as feminists. Are you surprised?

Why would anyone be surprised? Everyone hated feminists until many "feminist"
organisations better aligned with what men thought was important.

Look again. The important data is what self-described feminists think. The PRRI are a well-respected non-partisan body. And yes, most people don't self-describe as feminists. Are you surprised?

The questionnaire is there along with the report.

https://www.prri.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/Topline-LGBTQ-Culture-Issues-V3.pdf

Isnt it funny when surveys dont show what the TRAs claim they show. What that survey shows (leaving aside the usual who did it and where is the actual questionnaire to see how biased it was) is that most people dont want to be labelled by the terms used in the survey.

This doesn't explain "how it works" but demonstrates gender critical feminists are in a minority, at least in the States.

Evidence shows that a large majority of feminists support transgender rights, more so than almost any other group.

The study shows that gender critical views on transgender issues are most aligned with Christian Nationalists.

There is a link to the full survey in the summary.

https://www.prri.org/spotlight/identity-politics-and-transgender-equality/

How can you liberate women from a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it by giving men who want to be women even more power over women.

It is a position quite a few generally pro-feministic men around me hold.

They don't want to have to choose, they feel good being supportive and wants to continue doing so.

They tend to dismiss the concerns like "issues with the system not working right, not with trans ideology". They just don't care about transmen (and the gay ones wouldn't date one, but see it just as a preference).

No, feminism is about the liberation of women under patriarchy.

It isn't a catch all for all oppressed groups.

What rights to males need that they don't already have?

That feminism provides?

lol @RedToothBrush 😆

Now they do as they've become so used to the basic rights that were fought for that they've evolved what they think is important, which is where men got involved. And made sure they're included.

The roots of the concept of feminism is
simply centring the needs and rights of women.