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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Another BBC Complaint Thread: Response to "human milk" piece

63 replies

WitchyWitcherson · 01/03/2024 19:26

Lots of threads about the beeb this evening, oh dear 😂

I complained about the BBC News Channel interview with Kate Luxion the other night and have received this response...

"Thank you for getting in touch about an edition of ‘The Context’ broadcast on the BBC News Channel on 19 February.

The final segment of this edition focused on the publication of a letter from a medical director at an NHS Trust, written in response to campaign groups, which said that transgender women’s milk is just as good for babies as breast milk, referring to studies and WHO guidance.

Strong criticism of the letter’s contents by campaign groups was widely reported and so the programme sought reaction from Kate Luxion, an academic with relevant experience who was introduced as a “Research Fellow in Creative Health at the University College London and a lactation consultant trainee”.

During the discussion some of those criticisms were highlighted, with presenter Rajini Vaidyanathan pointing out that:
“There have been campaign groups who have criticised this letter. One, Policy Exchange, has said that the letter is unbalanced and naïve in its assertion that the secretions produced by a male on hormones could nourish an infant in the way a mother’s breastmilk can.”

And that:
“Another thing I’d like to put to you from critics of this letter - saying the NHS should not be indulging in this nonsense. A child's welfare must always take precedence over identity politics and what they describe as “contested beliefs systems that are not evidence-based”. Just once again, you say that there is evidence in this?”

After broadcast we received complaints suggesting that Kate Luxion was an inappropriate contributor and that the discussion was misleading or misrepresented the science.

Some viewers also specifically objected to the reference to “WHO guidance” in the introduction and while the letter from Dr Rachael James on behalf of University Hospitals Sussex does cite WHO guidance as part of a broader response, we accept that our script could have been clearer on this point.

Although we believe viewers would clearly understand that the discussion represented Kate Luxion’s assessment of the existing evidence, and that this was robustly challenged with other perspectives, we accept it may have been better to have interviewed Kate Luxion alongside another voice when examining the issues raised by the letter.

Your concerns have been discussed directly with senior editors and we will bear them in mind for any future coverage of this issue.

Thank you again for writing in - we very much value your feedback."

The stock response presumably means a lot of complaints were submitted! Who knows if it made much of a ripple amongst senior editors but fingers crossed they'll make sure their "experts" are actual experts next time and give a more balanced view... Not holding my breath!

OP posts:
Crankywiddershins · 02/03/2024 23:11

JanesLittleGirl · 02/03/2024 22:56

There was a debate on a related thread about how to describe the flow from a male breast. The descriptions that come to mind are: discharge; effluvium and excretion.

I know it's not a medical term but can I add "gunk" to the list?

Crankywiddershins · 02/03/2024 23:10

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

They said the same thing about men pretending to be trans to gain access to women in situations where those women are vulnerable. How's that going for you? I mean it's only a few of them... Isla Bryson, Tiffany Scott, Karen White, Amy George.
I'm sure I could find some more, but the point is that one is one too many.

JanesLittleGirl · 02/03/2024 22:56

There was a debate on a related thread about how to describe the flow from a male breast. The descriptions that come to mind are: discharge; effluvium and excretion.

ANameChangePresents · 02/03/2024 22:48

As are we all. Screenshot taken MN, before it's memory holed.

UtterlyOtterly · 02/03/2024 21:43

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WhiteVelvet · 02/03/2024 21:25

And i’m away.

I’ve been on this section of the forum for no more than 24hours.

That’s the second time today i’ve had my speech censored on this forum. The last being on this thread because I told the truth. Not my truth, but THE TRUTH.

There is absolutely no way on God’s green earth i’m allowing an incognito person at a keyboard decide what I can or cannot say. I’ve been through all this nonsense before somewhere else...

Cheerio

UtterlyOtterly · 02/03/2024 21:25

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FrancescaContini · 02/03/2024 21:15

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 18:44

You do realise that breast milk is breast milk, no matter whether it comes from a male or a female? Whether breast milk that comes from someone on hrt medication is safe or not for babies to drink might be something to be concerned about, and looked into, I really don't see what problem anyone should have about it other than simple bigotry on their part.

This is the funniest thing I’ve read in a while. Thank you for the laugh.

ditalini · 02/03/2024 21:13

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

The correct response when there are unknowns in the safety profile of a novel substance being fed to babies is, let's NOT support or encourage it until it's been proven safe.

The onus is on those wanting to support men to feed babies artificial-hormone-induced milk to conduct the research. If that's deemed a "waste of time", then the NHS should CERTAINLY not be encouraging it.

It's flabergasting the difference in safeguarding when gender identity is involved. The same goes for transmen who take testosterone in pregnancy when you compare the response to women who want to continue taking a prescribed drug that's not been proven safe in the fetus.

Emotionalsupportviper · 02/03/2024 21:02

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 18:44

You do realise that breast milk is breast milk, no matter whether it comes from a male or a female? Whether breast milk that comes from someone on hrt medication is safe or not for babies to drink might be something to be concerned about, and looked into, I really don't see what problem anyone should have about it other than simple bigotry on their part.

You do realise that "milk" from someone who hasn't developed the appropriate mammary glands during puberty is NOT breast milk? It is largely sebum and pus because the glands have not differentiated. (Mammary glands are modified sweat glands - they develop during a "window" of female puberty when the glands are sensitive to the appropriate hormones - you can't just bung any hormones into any glands in any body at any time).

Fatty tissue may grow, approximating "breasts", when hormones are applied to a post-pubertal male body, and they may excrete a substance, but it isn't milk.

WhiteVelvet · 02/03/2024 20:57

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NecessaryScene · 02/03/2024 20:50

At the risk of sounding thick, where is the biological mother in this scenario?

Under the patio?

StarlightLime · 02/03/2024 20:48

AuldWeegie · 02/03/2024 20:45

At the risk of sounding thick, where is the biological mother in this scenario?

You'd have to wonder, wouldn't you? Imagine pandering to that, with the baby you've just given birth to 😵‍💫

pickledandpuzzled · 02/03/2024 20:47

Sitting just out of sight watching while her breats leak, I’d think.

AuldWeegie · 02/03/2024 20:45

At the risk of sounding thick, where is the biological mother in this scenario?

pickledandpuzzled · 02/03/2024 20:38

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

It’s a waste of time and resources helping men breast feed to satisfy their own emotional (at best, sexual at worst) needs.

Babies should not be subjected to men using them to validate their own identity.

Playing at feeding a baby is criminal. The child’s need is paramount.

StarlightLime · 02/03/2024 20:31

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 18:44

You do realise that breast milk is breast milk, no matter whether it comes from a male or a female? Whether breast milk that comes from someone on hrt medication is safe or not for babies to drink might be something to be concerned about, and looked into, I really don't see what problem anyone should have about it other than simple bigotry on their part.

Stop your nonsense.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 02/03/2024 20:27

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

One man abusing a baby is one too many. May not matter to you but it does to the rest of us (thank heavens)

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 02/03/2024 19:31

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

The simplest way to deal with this is to get all health care providers, pharmaceutical companies, politicians and regulators to agree that there is no benefit whatsoever in making it possible for males to attempt to breastfeed. Any attempt from a male to put his nipple in a baby's mouth should be treated as deviant behaviour, triggering a safeguarding referral to social services.

I'm not expecting an outbreak of sanity any time soon to make the above possible, but that's what is needed, not just crossing our fingers and saying 'Oh well, hardly any of them will even try it, so let's not worry about it'. One is too many.

WitchyWitcherson · 02/03/2024 19:23

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

I don't know what the word is for someone who is happy for "only" single figures of children being abused is, but it's certainly far, far worse than "bigot".

Have you heard yourself? Why are trans women at the center of your arguments here? Why not children?

OP posts:
PomegranateOfPersephone · 02/03/2024 19:15

Every single baby matters. We should not be supporting any man to interfere with the mother-baby dyad or use a baby to satisfy his desires.

MagpiePi · 02/03/2024 19:14

@oopster74

Men taking cross sex hormones are not on HRT. The hormones they are taking are not replacing anything, and they are certainly won’t make a man produce ‘milk’.

MagpiePi · 02/03/2024 19:11

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 18:44

You do realise that breast milk is breast milk, no matter whether it comes from a male or a female? Whether breast milk that comes from someone on hrt medication is safe or not for babies to drink might be something to be concerned about, and looked into, I really don't see what problem anyone should have about it other than simple bigotry on their part.

What a ridiculous and uninformed opinion.

oopster74 · 02/03/2024 19:11

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 02/03/2024 19:05

Might be something to be concerned about? Are you for real? Breastfeeding mothers are advised to avoid all sorts of things, including painkillers, for the benefit of the baby, and you think it 'might' be worth looking into whether very high levels of artificial hormones in what their male parent is feeding them is a problem? Get a grip. This is nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with wanting to keep babies safe.

How many transwomen do you think are going to attempt to breastfeed? My guess would be single figures if at all, and my phrasing indicated that, so please, take that into account in what I wrote. Does it need looking into? Only if there are significant numbers of transwomen on hrt that are breastfeeding, otherwise its a waste of time and resources to do so. Might it be an idea to see if men can breastfeed safely? Possibly, but I suspect that not many men would want to breastfeed, so again, a waste of time and resources to research it.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 02/03/2024 19:11

I really don't see why anyone WOULDN'T have a problem with it unless they were totally, blindly captured by an utterly bonkers women and children harming ideology.

Abso-bloody-lutely.

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