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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Will Labour introduce Self ID & curb free speech?

531 replies

Heylo · 28/02/2024 15:44

I’ve never voted Tory, but as a lesbian woman who plans to have children (and obviously as a woman!) I am and will be part of the three groups most affected by Gender Ideology; women, lesbian and soon I hope a Mother. I am really worried about what happens when Labour takes power. The Tories have been rubbish no arguments there but at least they are finally moving against the steam rolling of Gender Ideology. I’m thinking Labour are not that fiscally different to the Tories and have said they will not cap bankers bonuses and they don’t intend to increase public spending in a significant way.

Really concerned about more gender identity clinics popping up under Labour and Keir Starmer possibly curbing free speech via so - called hate laws (in the feminist circle i run in we all agree this is a euphemism for silencing women about men in female prisons, rape shelters and other areas where women are vulnerable).

wonder what everyone else thinking?

OP posts:
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ArabellaScott · 29/02/2024 11:42

Giggorata · 29/02/2024 10:19

Of course they bloody will.
You have only to look at what they are doing with their own women members whilst they are in opposition.
Give them some power and they will demonstrate the fascism of the left.

Looking to the way Labour have treated Rosie Duffield and other women, this is a good point.

How many good women have been expelled after a witch hunt?

Karen Ingala Smith, ffs!

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/karen-ingala-smith-rejected-by-labour-party/

Karen Ingala Smith rejected by Labour Party

Karen Ingala Smith rejected by Labour Party - Labour Women's Declaration

"We wish to express our outrage that Karen Ingala Smith has been barred from membership of the Labour Party. Karen is a long-standing and well-respected

https://labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/karen-ingala-smith-rejected-by-labour-party

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 11:10

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 11:02

Both extremes mirror each other. What ended in the Holcaust and the extermination of 6 million people depended on the subservience of people to the crowd - to group think. Group think is not exclusive to the right by any means.

At the moment what scares me more is the totalitarianism of the supposed Left. It is the Leftists targeting people who will not utter the exact word they demand ( " Genocide"), or who use words they do not like ( "Transwomen are men"). I have not found myself in any situation being screamed at by any right wing mobs - but I have had 'Fascist" screamed at me by mobs of trans activists and others who have totally lost their mind.

Edited

Groupthink/Mass formation arises from the meeting of four psychological conditions at the population level ( not exclusive to the Right by any means) Desmet explains: feelings of social isolation, the absence of meaning in life, free-floating anxiety (lacking a clear object) and free-floating anger and frustration.

The ingredients are thus present for mass formation. Still missing is the catalyst: a narrative which heightens fear while providing an object against which anxiety can be directed – perhaps rationalized using the latest scientific “advances.” Suddenly the lonely, lost and anxious individual can contribute meaningfully to a (seemingly) worthy project. Many thus regain a sense of purpose and feeling of fellowship from doing right by their fellow citizens. A new social bond, even a new kind of citizenship, can emerge, says Desmet. This is the most important aspect of mass formation. It is maintained by indoctrination and propaganda “injected on a daily basis via mass media,” even as alternative voices are systematically silenced.

Populations are typically not uniform in their mass formation response, Desmet finds. About one-third fully internalize the process, become completely committed and willingly promote the narrative. A middle 40-50 percent may not be entirely convinced but go along to get along, especially if a job, key relationship or other asset is at risk. The final 10-30 percent remain independent in their thinking and some engage in outright dissent.ntelligence and education are no protection; to the contrary, the highly educated can be the most receptive, especially when science is enlisted in the cause.

“It is here that we, together with Hannah Arendt, situate the undercurrent of totalitarianism,” Desmet writes, “A naïve belief that a flawless, humanoid being and utopian society can be produced from scientific knowledge. The Nazi idea of creating a purebred superman based on eugenics and social Darwinism, and the Stalinist ideal of a proletarian society based on historical-materialism are prototypical examples.”

More immediately, mass formation generates what Desmet calls the “astounding” characteristics of totalitarian behaviour among the population: the sacrifice of the personal to the (alleged) good of the collective, intolerance of dissident voices, an informant mentality, susceptibility to pseudo-scientific indoctrination and propaganda, and the blind following of a narrow logic impervious to counter-evidence and transcending ethical boundaries. “The crowd acts in a coordinated way and repeats the same slogans,” Desmet notes. “It engages thoughts and expressions that spread through its ranks at lightning speed....aggression that is still looking for an object. Historically, this object has been the group that refuses to go along with the narrative. We should not underestimate where this could go"

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 11:02

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 10:46

What does "fascist" mean in that article?
Also "communists" don't represent the left wing in the same way "fascists" don't represent the right. Communism is one type of left wing movement, fascism is one type of right wing movement. They are the extreme left/right movements but there are still big differences between them (fascism is individualistic whereas communism is collective for example).

We are not at any risk of a communist government in the UK but arguably we are at risk of a fascist government as a lot of the current Reform/Conservative rhetoric draws on fascist ideas.

Same in the USA - in fact probably more so with Trump.

Both extremes mirror each other. What ended in the Holcaust and the extermination of 6 million people depended on the subservience of people to the crowd - to group think. Group think is not exclusive to the right by any means.

At the moment what scares me more is the totalitarianism of the supposed Left. It is the Leftists targeting people who will not utter the exact word they demand ( " Genocide"), or who use words they do not like ( "Transwomen are men"). I have not found myself in any situation being screamed at by any right wing mobs - but I have had 'Fascist" screamed at me by mobs of trans activists and others who have totally lost their mind.

Heylo · 29/02/2024 10:48

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 08:06

"Overreaching" =/= transitioning children though.
I think you are right to be concerned but language is important and saying "the role of schools to educate and not transition children" makes it sound as if schools have abandoned a core principle (education) and instead turned into Frankenstein's trans factory. Which is not true, even if some schools have done things some parents don't like.

I don’t think the poster used hyperbole - frankly many teachers are aiding and abetting social transitions - that’s factually correct. Transition starts with the social and will often end in medical if not nipped in the bud.

I feel pretty comfortable in the use of descriptors in contrast to the outright lies & manipulation of data used by TRAs.

let’s not worry about arranging deckchairs on the titanic

OP posts:
pronounsbundlebundle · 29/02/2024 10:48

I base my observations on the deeds of the Labour Party and what they've done to Rosie Duffield and other women suggest totalitarian tendancies to me. They very much want to silence women who would like to speak about basic observable biological reality.

Their deeds are all a bit 'four legs good, two legs better' or in fact 'women with vaginas good*, women with penises better'

*Not really obviously, they just like to pretend as with so many things. The misogyny is actually quite plain.

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 10:46

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 10:37

" A major theme in left wing propaganda is opposition to fascism. Quite often relatively moderate opponents of the left are described as “fascists”.Yet scratch a “Communist” and one quite often finds a fascist underneath.The regime that began with the October Revolution is now a fascist dictatorship. In China too, since the defeat of the Cultural Revolution many revolutionaries have been executed and the right to speak out freely, hold great debates, put up big character posters and so on has been officially and formally repudiated"

What does "fascist" mean in that article?
Also "communists" don't represent the left wing in the same way "fascists" don't represent the right. Communism is one type of left wing movement, fascism is one type of right wing movement. They are the extreme left/right movements but there are still big differences between them (fascism is individualistic whereas communism is collective for example).

We are not at any risk of a communist government in the UK but arguably we are at risk of a fascist government as a lot of the current Reform/Conservative rhetoric draws on fascist ideas.

Same in the USA - in fact probably more so with Trump.

Thelnebriati · 29/02/2024 10:45

Can you post a brief summary?

TempestTost · 29/02/2024 10:43

These school clubs are completely toxic and inappropriate, especially among the younger ages where they appear. It's just not the way to help kids come to terms with their sexuality, whether they are gay or straight or anything else.

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 10:39

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 10:31

The issue with the LGBTQ lunchtime clubs is that it is not really so much about the LGB, but the TQ. This is causing young gay people to believe they are "really trans". Also, other vulnerable pupils are swept up into the Q+ - those with autism and those with mental health issues.

Edited

I think its social media contagion and tik tok etc more than school LGBTQ clubs. Children now have an online life that arguably is more important and influential that the real world.

Teachers are at the sharp end of trying to manage that.

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 10:37

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 10:34

Totalitarianism is of both the Left and the Right. Fascism is now an over-used 'trope' used to categorise opposing views, and a concept that most people using it don't even understand.

Edited

" A major theme in left wing propaganda is opposition to fascism. Quite often relatively moderate opponents of the left are described as “fascists”.Yet scratch a “Communist” and one quite often finds a fascist underneath.The regime that began with the October Revolution is now a fascist dictatorship. In China too, since the defeat of the Cultural Revolution many revolutionaries have been executed and the right to speak out freely, hold great debates, put up big character posters and so on has been officially and formally repudiated"

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 10:37

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 10:34

Totalitarianism is of both the Left and the Right. Fascism is now an over-used 'trope' used to categorise opposing views, and a concept that most people using it don't even understand.

Edited

Quite.
I don't think the left wing in the UK can be described as totalitarian though. Its the "they are all as bad as each other" line to shut down our democracy.
The right wing are more totalitarian but even they aren't that bad compared to Putin for example.

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 10:34

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 10:24

That's quite some political DARVO you've got going on there.
The left is not where fascists come from. In fact many political experts would say there is no such thing as left wing fascism, as fascism is essentially far right ideology.

Totalitarianism is of both the Left and the Right. Fascism is now an over-used 'trope' used to categorise opposing views, and a concept that most people using it don't even understand.

MultiPolarista · 29/02/2024 10:34

Okay, you do you.

Signalbox · 29/02/2024 10:32

MultiPolarista · 29/02/2024 10:30

Name calling now?

More of an observation.

RebelliousCow · 29/02/2024 10:31

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 09:09

It's hard to know what's best isn't it.
When I was at school (section 28 era) there wasn't a single out gay person. There must have been a lot of miserable students. I think its a positive thing that schools can have clubs for gay kids.

At risk of sounding like a broken record, i think trying to ban transition at school is only going to make (some) teenagers more likely to want to do it. I'm glad I'm not a teacher. Who would want the job in today's climate where you can't do right for doing wrong

The issue with the LGBTQ lunchtime clubs is that it is not really so much about the LGB, but the TQ. This is causing young gay people to believe they are "really trans". Also, other vulnerable pupils are swept up into the Q+ - those with autism and those with mental health issues.

MultiPolarista · 29/02/2024 10:30

Name calling now?

Signalbox · 29/02/2024 10:29

MultiPolarista · 29/02/2024 10:25

yep

Lol you’re bonkers 😜

MultiPolarista · 29/02/2024 10:25

Signalbox · 29/02/2024 10:24

So you’re saying Starmer knew at the time that London Greenpeace was infiltrated by undercover cops and not only covered it up but at the same time assisted Helen Steel and Dave Morris for years with their case? This is just madly conspiratorial. Helen Steel and Dave Morris have never made this accusation about Starmer (as far as I’m aware). I’m no fan of Starmer but you can’t just make stuff up with zero evidence.

yep

Signalbox · 29/02/2024 10:24

MultiPolarista · 29/02/2024 10:15

If Dave and Helen had faced significant harm from handing out the leaflet, and then it came out if was written by a cop, the scandal would have been magnitudes more serious than it already was.
Starmer was promoted to head of public prosecutions not that long after, a top job in the whole country, how many other 'campaigning lawyers' has that happened to?

So you’re saying Starmer knew at the time that London Greenpeace was infiltrated by undercover cops and not only covered it up but at the same time assisted Helen Steel and Dave Morris for years with their case? This is just madly conspiratorial. Helen Steel and Dave Morris have never made this accusation about Starmer (as far as I’m aware). I’m no fan of Starmer but you can’t just make stuff up with zero evidence.

AdamRyan · 29/02/2024 10:24

That's quite some political DARVO you've got going on there.
The left is not where fascists come from. In fact many political experts would say there is no such thing as left wing fascism, as fascism is essentially far right ideology.

Giggorata · 29/02/2024 10:19

Of course they bloody will.
You have only to look at what they are doing with their own women members whilst they are in opposition.
Give them some power and they will demonstrate the fascism of the left.

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