Sexist and dangerous Samaritans ad

I'm going to give you some stats.

90% of rape victims do not report their rapes.

The boys who groped my vulva at age of eight were strangers to me, older boys in my school who I didn't know the names of. The man who put his hand on my arse on the train was a stranger. The man who grabbed me by the lapels in the street for no reason was a stranger.

I didn't report any of those attacks.

Does it not occur to you that that the ONS figures for assaults upon women might be a grotesque underestimate?

And 'taking reasonable precautions' does not equal 'living in fear'- something that seems lost on a bunch of recent posters.
it must be terrible for all you drivers living in fear of your cars being stolen so much you actually lock your cars every time you leave them. Must be so limiting. Don’t live like that. Leave it unlocked. So much more freeing.

That’s a very high percentage of women in a country of 70 million.

Assuming these figures are accurate & comparable (who knows?), I make it 0.00002% of men versus 0.097% of women.

But I'm pretty sure I was away when we did percentages in maths class, so all bets are off really.

IME men are acutely aware of hierarchies of size, strength, social position, money, vulnerability etc. They 'take reasonable precautions' too. It's just that nobody gives them grief for it.

So how men feel is valid, & how women feel isn't. Got it.

Silly wimminz.

And can we have 6 as a %age of the male population? Difficult to compare these figures otherwise.

Exactly. I've previously encountered issues after asking male fellow passengers genuine questions. Sometimes, that gets taken as an invitation.

Precisely.

And 'taking reasonable precautions' does not equal 'living in fear'- something that seems lost on a bunch of recent posters.

I don't 'live in fear' of car accidents but I do wear a seat belt. I don't live in fear of a heart attack but I do take moderate steps for a healthy lifestyle.

There seems to have been a lot of women posting here recently about how they've been sexually assaulted but don't 'fear men' nor see any real need to take precautions around unknown males (therefore other women shouldn't have boundaries, the argument seems to be). That doesn't sound healthy. It's especially not healthy to have so little empathy for other women nor to suggest that all women should be happy to take the same risks as they apparently are.

The cynic in me wonders whether the posts are genuine.

In my experience only men would fail to see why this is dangerous.

Women do not live in a constant state of fear so much as of knowing. We know men are stronger, more aggressive in general, and we know to approach a stranger who is male with care. If at all.

Many men just don't get it.

Him: and would that guarantee any distressed man they tried it out on wouldn't think so? Are distressed, possibly suicidal men at their best when it comes to correctly interpreting other people's intentions? Particularly women's?

And, let us be open to the possibility that some people/men, may be profoundly distressed or depressed or angry but not suicidal when they're approached.

I've posted the BMJ paper about the previous campaign. What was understandably and very obviously missing was any information about anyone who'd used the small talk approach with someone who wasn't suicidal and then had difficulties disentangling themselves or other problems.

Yes neighbourhood. It seems bizarre to think that because ‘some’ people don’t believe it is an invitation, that a male potentially considering suicide wouldn’t think that it was. There really is an issue to because it is telling women to ‘step up and ignore their discomfort’ despite some others denying it.

So, there are a number of issues with this ad, the people who signed it off do need to hear how the audience perceives their creation. Because they need to consider these issues before repeating the same error.

Writing emails to that effect and discussing it is not targeting an organisation. That is catastrophising and absolutist tactics right there.

I did a little test and ran the ad past a male friend.

Him: The script says WHAT? That's usually a chat-up line! That's terrible!

Me: well, a lot of people online think it isn't a come-on.

Him: and would that guarantee any distressed man they tried it out on wouldn't think so? Are distressed, possibly suicidal men at their best when it comes to correctly interpreting other people's intentions? Particularly women's?

The more I think about it, the more ridiculous the coffee line seems. It just sounds like a come on.

I get the premise that a simple interaction can be enough to break a chain of thought and stop (for now) the suicidal behavior. But as others have said, if you felt it was OK to do this, why not ask a train related question? Sounds so much less like a come on. Because if you were actually looking for coffee not an excuse to chat, you'd ask staff in the station, surely. That's why it sounds like a come on.

Yes, that's basically it!

As the saying goes, you do you.

Not a person alive is preventing you from talking to any man, suicidal or not.

What we are discussing is the advert attempting to tell women to override any misgivings. If they were telling men to talk to men, fine, dandy, fabulous, but they aren't.
Why do you think it's ever been the role of women to do all the emotional labour? Why should it still be our role?
When will the men be told to step up?

Why would you have to talk yourself into this?
Is it because there is some danger? An angry looking man, a great big drop onto train tracks really close?
Would you use the inane coffee line?

Thanks. Thats good to know.

Plenty of women have excellent reasons to view men, not life, through a window of fear.

I was sexually assaulted for the first time aged eight. Note: I say "the first time".

1. I don't think that the UK has a positive duty to interfere to help others ever since the hue and cry was abolished. I certainly don't see how it would be enforceable in a legal system that presumes innocence. IANAL though so check this.
2. There's a difference between stopping a definite suicide attempt, e.g. someone trying to climb a bridge parapet, and approaching a stranger who looks a bit miffed. People cannot be expected to strike up a conversation with everyone who's wearing a frown, especially not women.

Yes to the all or nothing thinking! I'd been trying to put my finger on it and it's that.

Either you are totally on board with this advert or you want suicidal people to die. No other options.

I mean, come on.

^^ That was in reply to@CauliflowerBalti

What's with the black and white thinking?

An organisation that does some good stuff has made a sexist ad. We're not allowed to complain about that?

To complain about the ad is not to suggest suicidal people shouldn't have help.

I can't get my head around the lack of nuance in some people's thinking (nor the rash of people coming on the feminist board to scold us for considering and standing up for women. That's why we're here. If you don't like it, other boards are available....).

The open water rescue analogy hits the nail on the head.

No one is saying that drowning ( suicidal ) people shouldn't be helped.

Taking a risk to save them might even help some - some people have been saved from drowning by a bystander jumping in and helping.

However, that is a risky strategy and there are safer ways to help, without turning yourself into another potential casualty.

What a shame the Samaritans haven't employed the same thought process with this issue.

The choice isn't just between 'do nothing or take a massive risk to yourself help' - that's a false dichotomy.

Who is/are the we?

This organised attack by the 'we'—is it insurrection, banging pots and pans, yarn wrapping of postboxes, writing a stiff note that ends with Regards rather than Kind regards?

Is there a plan?

I'm agog. Shall it be 2018 all over again?

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3357096-Razor-blades-and-stickers-again?

I haven't read the whole long thread, but there's a floating belief out there, not uncommon, that kindness or smiles or small talk from a woman to a man must mean that she is sexually interested in him.

I learned this the hard way as a young teenager, trying to be kind toward a teen boy who was upset about something.

So this is something many women learn to keep in mind in cases like this one, not to mention the more frightening fear of the person perhaps extending the destructive feelings they have toward others rather than himself, and not wishing to be that 'other'.

I probably would have alerted the worker standing there about the situation and asked for his help.