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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do you count GC feminists as LGBT?

317 replies

AdamRyan · 21/02/2024 14:20

Apparently Kemi Badenoch is a bit confused about the difference, claiming wide consultation with LGBT groups but actually only meeting GC feminist groups.

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1760281735990738972?s=20

It reminds me a bit of when Maria Miller did the consultation on trans rights and didn't consult any feminists.

I would expect MPs to be consulting both sides, but more than that I'm kind of offended to be described as LGBT for my GC stance Confused. Seems unfair to both gay people and feminists and like the old anti-feminist "you are all hairy lesbians" trope

https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/1760281735990738972?s=20

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TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 12:38

Stonewall haven’t acknowledged their wrongdoing tho, so the only way to move on is without them.

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2024 12:36

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 12:17

Oh get over yourself. I am perfectly capable of critical thought. The ins and outs of stonewall are irrelevant to Badenoch lying to parliament.

If I were to do some reading, I expect I'd still be able to see the nuance in Stonewalls position because I'm naturally a consensus builder. So I doubt any view I'd have on it would be acceptable to you or others on this board, because even without reading i can pretty much say that I'm not going down the line of "Stonewall is a brainwashing death cult...."

You keep lecturing us with a complete lack of understanding of basic principles and posing questions which are totally disengenous.

What do you expect?

You need to improve your understanding of the basics.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 23/02/2024 12:27

Well why on earth would anyone want to be CEO of stonewall? They are going to get a really hard time.

Perhaps they should stop trying to push unworkable, unfair policies on everyone by stealth then? As Kemi Badenoch made clear, they do not decide the law in this country.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 12:24

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 11:58

Stonewall has misrepresented the law and that is a serious fuck up (and there will be more court cases because of it) but they either hire someone like Mermaids Lauren Stoner to go in and say ‘Troubleshooting interim CEO, new start, lots of internal reflection to do’ or they admit their brand name is so tainted that they can’t hire a CEO and dissolve the whole thing.

Why limp on as a charity that is so distrusted they can’t hire anyone? And if you do decide to carry on regardless, you can’t really complain when the government don’t want to meet with you.
The Stonewall Equality Index and the Stonewall Champion scheme have imbedded imported Californian EDI policies into UK institutions, orgs and businesses that are incompatible with U.K. Equalities Law. They fucked their own good name into the dirt.

Well I agree with the first part.
I think the latter part is more difficult, our law isn't that clear and requires interpretation which is why there are all the legal challenges going on and the focus on amending the EA. Which I really really wish the Conservatives would just fucking do, rather than engaging in pointless political jockeying and fighting.

My personal belief is that TRAs did a very good job of infiltration (I'm using the old definition of very coordinated extreme trans activists like Whittle). They are a busted flush now. But at their peak they were influencing the Conservatives as much as the other political parties and public organisations.

I still believe there is a role for a charity to push for LGB rights and I think the ongoing focus on trans issues is a red herring. It would be more productive to acknowledge what happened and move forwards together rather than refuse to work with people because "they are captured" or "they are trans exclusionary". It just creates heat and noise rather than action.

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AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 12:17

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2024 12:08

Erm. Perhaps you'd like to take the time to find out.

Its been well publicised...

I know thanks.

The question was directed towards you to research and actually stop talking and rejurgatating bollocks without critical thought and actually bother to listen and think...

Oh get over yourself. I am perfectly capable of critical thought. The ins and outs of stonewall are irrelevant to Badenoch lying to parliament.

If I were to do some reading, I expect I'd still be able to see the nuance in Stonewalls position because I'm naturally a consensus builder. So I doubt any view I'd have on it would be acceptable to you or others on this board, because even without reading i can pretty much say that I'm not going down the line of "Stonewall is a brainwashing death cult...."

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RedToothBrush · 23/02/2024 12:08

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 11:30

I don't know, you'd have to ask them. I suspect their perspective is that they haven't. I'm also not an expert on stonewall but I do think they did a lot as a charity around gay acceptance in this country so I'm not inclined to see them as the evil brainwashing activist cult that some people them as.

Erm. Perhaps you'd like to take the time to find out.

Its been well publicised...

I know thanks.

The question was directed towards you to research and actually stop talking and rejurgatating bollocks without critical thought and actually bother to listen and think...

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 11:58

Stonewall has misrepresented the law and that is a serious fuck up (and there will be more court cases because of it) but they either hire someone like Mermaids Lauren Stoner to go in and say ‘Troubleshooting interim CEO, new start, lots of internal reflection to do’ or they admit their brand name is so tainted that they can’t hire a CEO and dissolve the whole thing.

Why limp on as a charity that is so distrusted they can’t hire anyone? And if you do decide to carry on regardless, you can’t really complain when the government don’t want to meet with you.
The Stonewall Equality Index and the Stonewall Champion scheme have imbedded imported Californian EDI policies into UK institutions, orgs and businesses that are incompatible with U.K. Equalities Law. They fucked their own good name into the dirt.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 11:45

Of course they are. When politicians are saying things like "Stonewall does not decide the law in this country" it is making g the organisation sound like a threat to democracy and so whoever is running it will be getting all kinds of hostility, from outright threats to ongoing questioning.

If the government of the day are also vocally opposed to the aims of the organisation, a lot of people aren't going to view the organisation as a place they can make the kind of impact they want to.

I am not at all surprised noone wants to take the job.

https://care.org.uk/news/2023/12/govt-stonewall-does-not-decide-the-laws-of-this-country

Schools are seeing an epidemic of pupils being encouraged to socially transition the equalities minister has said as she took part in a debate over gender recognition

Govt: Stonewall does not decide the laws of this country | CARE

Schools are seeing an epidemic of pupils being encouraged to socially transition the equalities minister has said as she took part in a debate over gender recognition

https://care.org.uk/news/2023/12/govt-stonewall-does-not-decide-the-laws-of-this-country

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TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 11:40

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 11:35

Well why on earth would anyone want to be CEO of stonewall? They are going to get a really hard time.

Same as the speaker of the HoC. Who would choose to do a job where you get personally attacked all day long?

I can foresee a situation where noone has any kind of public profile job, apart from sociopaths who don't care how others view them. In my opinion that's where this polarised, right/wrong discourse takes us to. I see very strong parallels with communism and fascist authorities, which is ironic given so many people seem to start from a perspective of being worried about having other peoples values imposed on them.

I don’t see anyone giving Stonewall’s interim Managing Director a hard time?
Surely it’s possible to run a charity without becoming a media figure? Mermaids temporary CEO seems to be doing a reasonable job of not attracting negative attention (eg gives interviews to relevant specialist publications rather than going on This Morning)

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 11:37

I looked it up - Nancy Kelly left at the end of July 2023.
As of now Stonewall have no CEO listed and 2/5 directors are described as ‘Interim’.

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/who-we-are

It’s the perfect time for LGB Alliance/The Lesbian Project/Gay Mens Network to reset the agenda back to the pre-2015 policy aims (and then look towards the countries where LGB people still don’t have legal equality).

There are still loads of T orgs, (Beaumont Society, Global Butterflies, GIRES, Gendered Intelligence, the ghost of Mermaids) and former LGB that added the T orgs without the name recognition of Stonewall (ie the conglomerate that initially proposed to challenge the LGB Alliance’s charity status but then mostly backed away leaving Mermaids to do the heavy lifting… and subsequently self destruct under oath).

Do you count GC feminists as LGBT?
AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 11:35

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 11:22

Some of the OG Stonewall founders/activists have criticised Stonewall for making a similar shift/losing sight of it’s mission (eg Simon Fanshawe). Adding the T (circa 2015) Is a very obvious change of direction, especially as the T got their big law change first (same sex marriage was legal if one spouse had a GRC way before it became legal for same sex couples with no GRC)

Stonewall is definitely on the decline, I don’t think they’ve actually managed to appoint a new CEO yet? (And Mermaids have just extended the tenure of their emergency acting CEO, rather than appointing a permanent one).

Well why on earth would anyone want to be CEO of stonewall? They are going to get a really hard time.

Same as the speaker of the HoC. Who would choose to do a job where you get personally attacked all day long?

I can foresee a situation where noone has any kind of public profile job, apart from sociopaths who don't care how others view them. In my opinion that's where this polarised, right/wrong discourse takes us to. I see very strong parallels with communism and fascist authorities, which is ironic given so many people seem to start from a perspective of being worried about having other peoples values imposed on them.

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AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 11:30

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2024 11:19

Why did the founders of Stonewall disinherit it from their grassroots principles?

I don't know, you'd have to ask them. I suspect their perspective is that they haven't. I'm also not an expert on stonewall but I do think they did a lot as a charity around gay acceptance in this country so I'm not inclined to see them as the evil brainwashing activist cult that some people them as.

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TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 11:22

Some of the OG Stonewall founders/activists have criticised Stonewall for making a similar shift/losing sight of it’s mission (eg Simon Fanshawe). Adding the T (circa 2015) Is a very obvious change of direction, especially as the T got their big law change first (same sex marriage was legal if one spouse had a GRC way before it became legal for same sex couples with no GRC)

Stonewall is definitely on the decline, I don’t think they’ve actually managed to appoint a new CEO yet? (And Mermaids have just extended the tenure of their emergency acting CEO, rather than appointing a permanent one).

RedToothBrush · 23/02/2024 11:19

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 11:12

I don't follow them, I disagree with their policy and so am not particularly interested in what they say.

Stonewall I find more interesting. Its a very long standing charity. I think some of the differences between it and Sex Matters is the relative youth of Sex Matters as an organisation, so its still growing and finding influence. Stonewall is much more established and I think in decline, it's struggling to stay relevant.

Why did the founders of Stonewall disinherit it from their grassroots principles?

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 11:12

I don't follow them, I disagree with their policy and so am not particularly interested in what they say.

Stonewall I find more interesting. Its a very long standing charity. I think some of the differences between it and Sex Matters is the relative youth of Sex Matters as an organisation, so its still growing and finding influence. Stonewall is much more established and I think in decline, it's struggling to stay relevant.

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TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 10:59

Mermaids was founded as a support group for parents of children attending GIDS. It morphed into something else, I’d say it was policy group first, then became an identitarian group.
Susie Green was the catalyst for the switch from peer support to policy change and then the identitarian takeover made her superfluous to requirements.
The EDI Vampire is eating Mermaids alive.

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 10:54

The difference is outlined by a poster above.

AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 10:31

I think anyone can join stonewall. Isn't that precisely why so many people feel there has been "capture"? Just going to have a look

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AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 10:30

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 09:47

‘GC groups’ aren’t all identity groups though, they are mostly policy groups.

Anyone of any identity can join them as long as they support the aims of the group - eg LGB Alliance evens has trans members. Transgender Trend is more like Greenpeace than Stonewall.

What's the difference between an identity group and a policy group?
Mermaidsfor example lobbies for policy change. Yet I think this is the kind of group tempest would call an identitarian group?

I worry that people are going too black and white and actually damaging the "free speech" they claim to uphold by trying to silence certain groups for "wrongthink". A far better strategy is to engage with the ideas those groups are pushing and calmly criticise the idea, not the group.

That is how GC feminists managed to kill off self ID.

The current approach of refusing to listen at all to anything Mermaids say is somewhat understandable (although I'd still listen and critically analyse their ideas) The extension of that to refusing to engage with politicians or public organisations because "there's no point, they've been captured" is not. It is essentially cancel culture by another name.

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BackCats · 23/02/2024 09:58

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 09:47

‘GC groups’ aren’t all identity groups though, they are mostly policy groups.

Anyone of any identity can join them as long as they support the aims of the group - eg LGB Alliance evens has trans members. Transgender Trend is more like Greenpeace than Stonewall.

My thoughts exactly.

TathingScinsel · 23/02/2024 09:47

‘GC groups’ aren’t all identity groups though, they are mostly policy groups.

Anyone of any identity can join them as long as they support the aims of the group - eg LGB Alliance evens has trans members. Transgender Trend is more like Greenpeace than Stonewall.

hihelenhi · 23/02/2024 09:18

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AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 09:15

TempestTost · 23/02/2024 00:18

Yes, bad things sometimes happen to people because of some group they in some sense belong to. Or other ways in which their commonality gives them an interest in common.

However, that often does not mean they see eye to eye on what the cause or remedy is. Or very often, even what the problem is.

This is just as true of women's groups. Many see themselves, honestly enough, of representing the best interests of women. But actually, plenty of women differ in how they see their interests.

So when a woman's group says that something is a problem, or advocates a policy position, whose interest are they actually representing?

They are actually representing the women who agree with them, while denying the validity of the viewpoint of those who disagree.

There was a time when many of the successful identarian lobbies tended to be very limited in policy demands, and often they were on very concrete things, because they avoided making pronouncements on things that were highly controversial in their membership. That's no longer the case though. (Incidentally, it's true of other lobby groups to, Amnesty International is a good example.)

If you distrust the groups, you take away any chance those people have of getting their issues heard.
We've seen that with the success of GC groups at getting self ID removed. GC groups are groups of women united around a core "identity" which is that sex is important.

By arguing against "identarians" you are arguing against a very powerful tool available to people who are being silenced. I'm not sure why you would do that.

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AdamRyan · 23/02/2024 09:11

Ooh. I like games where people make up stories and you have to try to spot the liar. 2 truths and a lie type thing.
OK. My turn.

There are shadowy organisations in this country spreading far right extremist propaganda and influencing the government by way of donating money and giving early career wannabe MPs jobs. They like to manipulate the common people through misinformation and lies, using social media and fear tactics to get people to buy into their agenda.

One of their aims is to sow discord with previously trusted information so people believe them, not impartial sources. So they set themselves up as "free speech" charities and research institutes.

Can we spot the people who use disengenous manipulation of the concept of lobby groups = the only reliable source if information?

Hmmm. Yes.

Yes the very height of cynicism. And the very opposite of democracy principles.

We see you.

Fun! Whose turn is it next?

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