Do you count GC feminists as LGBT?

Or letters! 🙄

Then next post you berate Kemi when Oenny Mordant and others have just as much power in the party! You flit to whatever argument supports the nasty tory narrative. And look for offence.
Red Tooth Brush is personally affected by this issue yet still speaks with fairness and compassion and you even accuse her of being aggressive on here. But she is not.
You perceive it that way but people here are just responding to your posts. No agenda other than men are always men.

Again, you contradict yourself.
In one post you demonstrate an understanding of Denton's and that the tra had influence over everyone.
Whilst being disingenuous about what captured means. It's not voluntary membership of stonewall champions. It's withdrawal of all gov and parstatal bodies like lotto funding unless you tie the stonewall way beyond the law line.
How you can say stonewall represents lgbt when most of it's own founders are appaled, when Nancy Kelly called lesbians sexual racists, all the court cases finding their guidance illegal. God knows.

@AdamRyan

If I were to do some reading, I expect I'd still be able to see the nuance in Stonewalls position because I'm naturally a consensus builder. So I doubt any view I'd have on it would be acceptable to you or others on this board, because even without reading i can pretty much say that I'm not going down the line of "Stonewall is a brainwashing death cult...."

The trap for reasonable, rational, consensus building people is to assume others are the same. This, after all, is how we got into this mess...no-one ever thought that the reasonable, well meaning acceptance of trans women as "women" socially would be used as a lever to demand all women-only provisions must be made available to trans-identifying males.

"Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man. You take a step towards him, he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man.

To be clear, I'm not telling you Stonewall are a "Stonewall is a brainwashing death cult", I'm telling you even if your starting point is to assume SW (or LGBA or anyone else) are reasonable, you still need to check your assumptions because sometimes, just sometimes, they are not. Or their idea of reasonable is very different to yours.

Yes, it must be utterly depressing to hand over the reigns to a new generation only for them to immediately give the horse, the stable and all the well-stored hay to an adjacent glue factory.

I’m reminded of Helen Joyce’s remarks re: how trans ideology doesn’t just change an existing org a little bit, it makes it do a complete 180, so ‘feminist’ orgs start demanding that men be allowed in women’s shelters and ‘gay rights’ orgs start promoting the castration of gay and lesbian teenagers.

I’m talking specifically about the Stonewall Equality Index and the Stonewall Champions schemes, where Stonewall gave training on EDI policy and then rated the org on how it was implemented, not Stonewall’s surface level PR campaigns, past or current.

It’s the unlawful policy stuff that is where Stonewall shit their own bed (oh, and in their suggestions to government re: Self ID and removing single sex exemptions entirely, which thankfully were rumbled before Penny Mourdant/Theresa May got them into law.

Thats your perception, but cognitive dissonance is not the only reason people become irritated.

I'm not a 'Badenoch fangirl'. I pointed out the bias in the question directed at her in the HOC because I'm disgusted by the behaviour of many politicians over this issue and concerned about the overall quality of political debate.

I'm naturally a consensus builder.

You manage to hide it quite well @AdamRyan .

Not the actions of a "misogynistic prick"

He is one though. It's not the only thing I base my opinion on.

Maybe she could get on with delivering the amendment to the EA.

It's not her sole decision, is it. She's not the PM.

It's very sad for those of us who back in the day were involved with Stonewall. More so for Simon Fanshawe, Bev Jackson & Kate Harris who were founder members of Stonewall or the GLF.
Depressing to see the reputation of what was once an ethical organisation destroyed in this way and their complete lack of insight into why..

I became a ‘terf’ when I realised that supposedly pro LGBT orgs were promoting ideas that would harm both LGB & T people in the long term via backlash/over course correction.

I think this is one of the key things. 'why do you hate trans people?' narratives are there to divert from the harms that lack of robust safeguarding and ethics that affects trans people most.

Kemi is not a super human who can necessarily a) circumnavigative parliamentary process and schedules just because she wants to b) persuade enough of her party to support the issue c) persuade her party masters that it's worth doing before an election rather than use the subject as a traction issue for an election.

I'm not a fan girl by any means but christ understand what individual MPs (Inc minsters) can and can't just 'do'.

Kemi is still trying to win an argument within her party on several levels

This is just another stick to beat with.

Oh and the reason Stonewall’s EDI training scheme is incompatible with UK Equalities legislation is that it fails to acknowledge that the various protected characteristics have competing needs and that clashes are inevitable.
Stonewall puts T above everyone and everything, which is why it’s an identirian org, rather than a policy org.

Sex Matters aren’t campaigning for the removal of the Gender Reassignment protections entirely, they just want the clash with Sex protections acknowledged and both groups catered for in separate provision (or where appropriate, eg sports, for the category that can best accommodate both MtF and FtM-on-performance-enhancing-substances to be renamed ‘Open’)

Speaking of which, I hear a trans and NB domestic violence shelter has just opened in Lancashire, which is exactly the sort of 3rd space provision that can resolve the competing needs of 2 groups (and the sort of segregation Stonewall has been vehemently opposed to, lobbying the Gov to remove Sex based protections entirely).

I became a ‘terf’ when I realised that supposedly pro LGBT orgs were promoting ideas that would harm both LGB & T people in the long term via backlash/over course correction.

Stonewall threw away their years of solid reputation by overreaching aka ‘getting ahead of the law’.

To actually understand what you are saying before you say it!

Like the whole concept of why lobby groups can be problematic and the differences between grass roots movement and top down power imposed on and against grassroots movements.

You have THE most superficial understanding but you think because youve hear 'lobby groups bad' that ALL lobbying is bad.

Sometimes lobbying is simply a group of the wider public who have got off their arse and got together to campaign against the odds.

The fact you have totally failed to grasp the difference between that and powerful well funded and well connected organisations and individuals speaks volumes.

Saying you are disengenous is the more diplomatic option.