Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

I am no way suggesting that women should only have mixed facilities to use. I personally would go for the Gent's, Ladies and Other or Trans.

ALWAYS this odd, totally disproportionate drive to be kind to men, a belief that thwarting men is so very very awful - this is being constantly expressed by handwringing politicians,

and yet absolutely no extension of the same values to humans lacking penises. Thwart away, no hesitations there, 'kindness' to them doesn't even enter into it.

Fgs if you're into male supremacism just bloody own it. It is baffling how many people see women as just service units for men and it being the proper place of a woman to kneel and give. Not even equally human.

Worth saying again...

Women aren't human shields, or support humans, or non player characters, or everyone's mum.

Cynically weaponising the early female socialisation of 'be kind' in case (god forbid) the men get hurty feelings is misogyny writ large.

This. Men who were not successful at 'being men' by their view (ie swallowed gender stereotypes and lacked the maturity and courage to be comfortably gender non-conforming). Who do they punish for this? Women because it's easier to bully women than other men. Most were probably bullied and excluded by other men all their lives, often because of autism / same sex attraction or bisexuality / trauma.

They're too afraid to take on toxic male violence so they become perpetrators themselves by forcing themselves into women's spaces. Edited to add - some of the most obnoxious activists are the ones who clearly experienced rejection by women, feel entitled to women's approval and therefore hate women for not being attracted to them.

I see so many parallels between the incel movement and trans activists and autism is a significant factor in both, amongst both men and women. I would have great compassion for both groups under different circumstances but not while they are actively harassing and threatening women who speak out against extreme TRA ideologies.

No. Women aren't support humans; we should not budge up and abandon single sex spaces because it's 'kind' to do so.

Some women simply aren't able to use mixed sex facilities. Why are you happy to abandon them? That isn't being kind to other women; it's sacrificing them for the benefit of men. Just no.

Well it's a choice between not satisfying a small number of men who would like to use the women's facilities regardless of impact on women, or making the women's facilities inaccessible and higher risk for half of the population. So it seems fairly obvious, both in numbers and that the first job of women's facilities is to be accessible and inclusive to all women.

Those who do not want to use the spaces for their sex can use a third space, that's their safe and dignified alternative, and their doing that means that no one loses all access so that others can have the additional choice that they want. And many women apparently will be very happy to use mixed sex provision and consent to do so and that's great, not to mention things like dads with daughters/mums with boys, so it's not going to be in any way othering, (other than being clear that no, female people and male people with TQ+ identities are not the same thing), and it would be actually inclusive on multiple fronts.

And my maternal caring instincts are for the women currently excluded, the ones no longer feeling safe or who want to use a facility without the price of it being an excited male doing whatever suits him next to them as they undress, and the the ones who have been assaulted and raped thanks. Those instincts won't lead me to abandon the women and mummy the men, because I'm not insanely sexist.

It is looking very much like it will be impossible to satisfy everyone. Worth pointing out that it is the biological women feeling threatened in the Ladies room but the threat in the Gent's would be felt by the trans gents. In fact, the likelihood of either trans women or trans gents being victims of discrimination, shaming, and violence in a changing room or bathroom far outweighs the risk of a trans people having any interest in hurting anyone. I have a sneaking suspicion that being the maternal sex, we are perhaps more kindly disposed to anyone suffering in our society. Do other people feel that way?

Previously if you saw a man in the women's changing rooms or toilets they would be rightly frogmarched out of there.

This.

No one would have had the slightest doubt about the man's intentions, and would have told him so in words of one syllable.

Now men are emboldened to treat women like this in force, having tied women's hands behind them with rainbows and a lot of coercive bullshit. And be patted for their brave stunningness in doing so.

Good men stay out so bad man stand out

Previously if you saw a man in the women's changing rooms or toilets they would be rightly frogmarched out of there.

Now the man in question is asked 'do you feel like a woman' and if the answer is yes then the actual woman is called transphobic so what happens is the women who see a man in the ladies now stay silent despite feeling uncomfortable in that situation.

What has changed is women's ability to say no

We know that transwomen have definitely harmed women and girls in female spaces. It can't be argued against as it has happened.

I have heard lots of people say that transwomen can't use male spaces as they would be attacked but haven't heard of it actually happening. Transwomen using the gents with no issues is definitely the case as they've told us they do. I do recall there being one who posted a picture of themselves in the gents looking as sexy as they could manage asking us women if they really wanted them to be in the gents with our husbands. The implication being that if they used the gents then our husbands wouldn't be able to resist cheating on us with this fella.

Exactly.

I sometimes use the loos at my local railway station. There are still male and female ones, clearly marked. They have a schedule of doing regular ‘security checks’ (not sure why it’s deemed necessary, as it’s quite a quiet suburban station) but the male staff at the station will hammer loudly on the main door of the women’s toilets and announce their intention to enter before putting their heads round the door to look inside (not into the cubicles, obviously - into the space with the washbasins/dryers).

it is clearly understood that it’s a female space so men can enter only if warning/consent is given, and only for specific and limited purposes.

The absurdity is that we’re supposed to believe that if this same male security guard decided he ‘was’ a woman, any need to hammer on the door magically disappears. Nothing would have changed. Just a feeling in his head.

Any transwoman acting in good faith is going to respect women’s need for single sex spaces and stay out of them.

It doesn't matter that it's just 'some' transwomen.

The first transwoman who enters a female only space makes it mixed sex.

And if the rules for that space have decided that a man is a woman if he says so it means that even if no men ever decide to enter that space a certain percentage of women will have to self exclude just in case a man does decide to enter.

*some trans women

The issue is shown very clearly with the swimming ponds

There are three spaces - male, female, mixed.

Job done you would think.

Nope. The trans women want to use the women's one not the mixed one. The result of this is that some women who cannot be in the presence of men in a swim suit (for reasons of religion, fear of make violence for example) now can't go at all

THIS!!
All day long

This

More space to go spinny? 👗

Larger mirrors for selfies? 👀

Colonisation of women's spaces is the ultimate aim of the AGP and Misogynist

If I was a male person into exhibitionism or voyeurism or some similar things I'd love a change in the implicit social contract about single-sex spaces which would make it much harder for women or girls to question my presence in some space where they might be vulnerable for my specific interests. I could set up in peace etc. and I could argue that anyone who objects to my presence is a bigot.

The spaces are single sex for the service users obviously, we're not suggesting harems where no male plumbers or paramedics are allowed to step foot.

FFS, the strawmanning is all over the shop today.

Another aspect of these types of toilets is safety. When I worked in a building with toilets the public could use, myself and my colleagues had to frequently climb over the partitions to access someone in a toilet who had collapsed, due to ill health, drug misuse etc. We were alerted to someone being in trouble because other users could see under the doors and let us know. We could climb over and move the person so the door could be opened without hurting the person lying on the floor.

With celling to floor doors and partitions, none of that can happen. The likelihood of alarms in each cublicle (like those in accessible toilets) to alert someone is vanishingly unlikely.

Another question in terms of how in works in practice - what is to stop a man pretending he is a 'Trans man' to access a woman's space? How many people are legit going to stop and question them?

This argument always makes me laugh. It’s basically saying you must accept men who pretend to be women in your space because if you don’t you will end up with men who are pretending to be women pretending to be men and that’s MUCH MUCH worse.

It’s potentially dangerous to blur societal boundaries. Up to about 10 years ago, most men would have felt extremely uncomfortable going into a women’s space such as women’s toilets or a women’s changing room. Very few would have felt at ease doing so. This is at a subconscious level.

Now that boundary has been blurred, and there is less of a subconscious barrier to going into a women’s space. It may even be slightly less for an old man like me; I’m quite sure it’s less for many of a younger generation for whom the old societal expectation is less clear cut.

You could say the same about many other societal changes. Some of those changes may be positive, such as the lowering of barriers to women in STEM. But we have moved far too fast on “gender” issues, and without proper scrutiny. The GRA enabled this; “no debate” and the coercive effects of “preferred” pronouns, “be kind” and the demonising of any dissent as “transphobia" have all resulted in a societal change with negative consequences, particularly for women, and, of course, children and vulnerable adults caught up in this unquestionable ideology.

'It' has been working well my entire life. I can't remember a time when it didn't work well. The very rare occasion ( I'm not even sure i can recall one) the 'rule' may have been infringed then people were emboldened to call it out. Social disapproval is a strong de-motivating force.

I don't think toilets are seen as 'sacred spaces' at all. Why do you think we have single sex facilities in the first place? And what has changed that means those reasons no longer apply?