Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

And who would be in that third space for women who needed female only provision, faster than a ferret down a hole?

Men.

Yes, and its not me because I dont feel the need to call people names.

Mens, Womens, Unisex. Problem solved. I will go in whatever has the lesser queue and smell, tbh.

Perhaps the real third space needs to be for women who are not comfortable sharing?

So:

• Women from cultures and religious backgrounds who can’t be in a space with men
• Women who are breastfeeding and leaking, suffering from period/menopause flooding and other physical issues that make them desire a private space
• Very young and very old women who may be particularly vulnerable
• Women who have had traumatic encounters with men and male bodied people

That’s a lot of women for that third space.

I know who is being really rude and thoughtless here.

That is exactly what I was just about to say!

Although I'm sure it wouldn't be long before those areas became mixed sex - the Hampstead Ponds is the perfect example.

Perhaps the real third space needs to be for women who are not comfortable sharing?

Well yes, this is what we've talked about many times. One space for females, one for males, one for mixed.

Sorry if that hasn't been clear!

Its really fucking rude to refer to people as handmaids. Why be such a dick?

I believe what you are referring to btw, is a gender neutral/unisex toilet which most of us use happily as they exist in many establishments already. In fact, I noted yesterday on bookable I could filter restaurants by which places had a gender neutral toilet.

Perhaps the real third space needs to be for women who are not comfortable sharing?

Why aren't all the trans ally women clamouring for third spaces that they could share with transwomen?

Surely it is a win-win situation;

• the handmaids can be all smug about how inclusive they are,
• the transwomen get their validation from being in a space with real women who won't object to any of their behaviour,
• everyone else gets to be in a safe, single sex space.

Similarly for intimate care situations. All those trans providers would be run off their feet with having to attend to all the allies demanding their care.

Segregating other groups? Like Male and Female?

Me too!

An inspired solution!

I'll vote for that.

Indeed - no men should have access to women's spaces - but the men who can least be trusted are the ones who demand to be in.

It never fails to amaze me how people don't realise they are being transphobic by insisting that transwomen should use women's spaces. They are ignoring completely people who have a gender identity of anything other than man or woman. Why should only transwomen and transmen have spaces for their gender but the cakegender, abimegender, cosmicgender, pyrogender etc be left out. The only way to be truly inclusive is to have males of any gender and females of any gender spaces.

Also offending risk is based on sex not gender. Safeguarding based on sex makes sense, it does not based on gender. There is a vast evidence base supporting this.

In fact transwomen prisoners have a higher rate of sexual offending than non trans men prisoners. So on that basis you could argue are a greater risk (plus obvs the fact they won't take 'no' for an answer from women).

Just makes me think of this and all the dick panderers with their sad faces that men aren't being prioritised.

I really want a t-shirt which says by 'inclusion' you actually mean 'dick pandering' now

That's why most campaigns are about inclusion.

That's why women here are arguing that the inclusion of women in women's spaces should come before working out how to add men into them.

Unless by 'inclusion' you actually mean 'dick pandering'.

You cannot put men in women's spaces without pushing women out, and disadvantaging many more. I really have no more tears to shed about how sad that may make some men, since they have no interest at all in the women they're pushing out and harming.

If people campaigned for the provision of separate trans spaces, this would effectively remove trans people's presence in many community spaces.

As opposed to removing women, you mean?

There is no reason why transpeople can't use the facilities for their SEX (which is observable and physical) rather than those for their "gender" which is an indefinable idea in some people's heads.. And also, there are umpteen genders - they can't all have their own loo - but only two sexes, and we can cope with that.

Quite. The consenting women in the third space won't do.

They want the non consenting ones. And to dominate all the spaces and all the women all of the time, even in the face of knowing damn well the exclusion and harm involved to women. They do not care, they have no interest, which leads me to the conclusion that the harm to and coercive control of women is the point. Apparently it's no fun without it.

Which is when I went from 'aww bless, must be tough to live with gender dysphoria' to 'fuck that mate'.

This is a perfect summary.
the cries of ‘excluding us from sport’ ‘we just want to use the toilet’ ‘we just want to live our lives’ ring hollow when Trans Rights Activists and TRA organisations such as Stonewall won’t even allow a debate on a third space. It’s the absolutely logical solution.

Because it's no different to segregating other groups?

Like accessible facilities for people who have disabilities you mean? Well the whole point is to provide a service that meets their needs.

If transwomen 'can't' use male facilities then they should use the facilities provided for them, not the female facilities. It's really very simple.

Eh?

This isn't segregation. We're not segregating some groups of women from others. No women are being excluded. All women are free to use women's facilities. Men are not. That has been the case since forever and it's not changing.

Men, including transwomen, are excluded because they are not women and as a class they pose a threat to women. That's not segregation, that's just sensible.

Nailed it. It's absurd. And an absolute fucking cheek.

Their motivation isn’t important.

They’re all male and women can’t tell the difference (unless they have the psychic powers of Layla Moran) and don’t care.

Any transwoman who is acting in good faith will understand that women have single sex spaces for good reason, and that if one male is allowed in there it becomes far harder to keep the others out. So he won’t try to come in.

And how are we supposed to tell the difference, on a changing room or anywhere else?