Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

Here's a handy visual for those who don't understand why we want to exclude ALL male people, regardless of how they identify, from female space.

Can’t take a photo in a separate facility and share it online, not the same is it? Or won’t be able to tell a story about how a woman asked you for a tampon as you totally pass.

I could mention the ones who like to root through the bins, but I won’t.

I actually wish there was more push back from religious groups and how it excludes those women.

The reason many activists outright reject third spaces and categories is entirely ideological; and nothing to do with wanting dignity, fairness and safety for all.

Ideological imposition is sought becaue only through authoritarian and oppressive measures can an identity rooted entirely in personal feeling or desires be validated. What is fair for other people is not a consideration.

Transgender Ideology is the apotheosis of the cult of Individualism combined with the contemporary over-emphasis on 'feelings' being the only truth/ " My truth".

Well, think about it reasonably. Say trans people somehow band together and campaign for third spaces.

You have a railway station with a set amount of space. Where does the money come from to change the layout and fund the works? It would make male/female/disabled facilities smaller and piss people off that way.

I guess the reason trans people don't tend to want to use male toilets is the threat of sexual violence, whether they're transmen or transwomen. Yes, that's the objection against trans people using women only facilities but if you're not an fetishist or a rapist, you just want a piss without being attacked, you'd want to go in the women's most likely.

Even with separate spaces there's not really anything to stop a sex offender going into women's toilets, whether dressed as a man or not.

My preference would be a default to fully enclosed unisex separate cubicles designed for safety and much more regular cleaning, together with cleaning attendants for security and to shame the filth makers.

Babla nobody is saying that all transwomen are perverts. You need to play it forward though - if abusive men are able to access areas where women are vulnerable simply by saying they are trans, why wouldn’t they? There are many times more abusive men than there are transwomen, so then any ‘transwoman’ in a ladies toilet/changing room is statistically more likely to be dangerous.

You might even say that’s already happening…

The arguments 'oh businesses can't do it' are bollocks and reminiscent of the arguments against disabled toilets. If TRAs really felt trans people were oppressed they'd be fighting for their own toilets. But no.

Toilets can either have one or two all people individual toilets (and one disabled) or single sex plus unisex/ gender based. If they only have men's toilets and unisex toilets (even if labelled women) that's discriminating against women.

So, we're excluding Muslim women, Jewish women, raped women, domestically abused women, women with any form of trauma from male violence, women who don't like being flashed, women who don't want their children to be flashed, gaslit and used as unconsenting props and their safeguarding instincts thus undermined. and women who have heavy periods from toilets and changing rooms and other formerly single sex spaces and facilities (and from public life) to accommodate less than 1% of the population.

This is exclusionary of half of the population - the half that does most of the unpaid caring work. It's creating an urinary leash for 50% of the population.

All for the wants of a minority of narcissistic toxic men.

And there should be no problem with creating at least one unisex toilet - if they can manage to do it for disabled people then they can manage one unisex. But that's not what TRAs want - they want to coercively control women and children.

Oh yeah. He’s a peach.

It really grates on me that they can't accept their OWN spaces. Agree with others they want the women in the space rather than a space. Infruriating that we have to put up with this because politicians and organisations are more scared of upsetting them than women.

Also agree that it is a fetishisation of women because how TF does anyone know what being a woman feels like?? Just because they're not comfortable being men doesn't automatically make them women. And same for trans men. If someone hates being white they don't automatically become Asian. Imagine if we allowed people to identify as another race...Yes, some people aren't comfortable in their own bodies and they can and should have a separate identity of being Trans with a community of people just like them - none of whom are men or women, they're just trans. Anyone who doesn't like it is fetishising being a woman and playing dress up because it's all based on physical appearance!

What, this Shon Faye?

This took a little longer than expected.

Now where's my dabber?

Women are legally entitled to single sex changing rooms, showers, sleeping accommodation, prison cells, hospital wards etc for our safety, privacy and dignity. The provision of 3rd spaces where possible is a reasonable solution.
But this is rejected as undressed/ vulnerable women and girls are required for the validation of men who claim to be women. Despite the reluctance of said women and girls to assume the role of support human beings, this is ignored with a mixture of threats, intimidation and coercion to persuade women to remove boundaries and accept our assigned role as support humans.

The Scottish government are clear in their determination to wedge male prisoners claiming to be women into the female estate that these men must have access to women and the female experience.

Once you see this, you can't unsee it.

I genuinely don't know whether the thousands of vulnerable young women who've been persuaded that their developing bodies are flawed and that changing sex is the solution are making the same demands of men? I suspect not for numerous reasons.

How would providing a third, gender neutral space be outing?

Presumably both men and women should be able to use that space.

Why would anyone suspect that a passing trans person wasn’t exactly what they claimed to be? That’s exactly the point of providing that space that anyone can use.

And as has been pointed out before, just because you are fine with men in your toilet, that doesn’t mean all women are fine with it. Your consent is not enough and you cannot consent on their behalf. Your consent may mean some women can no longer use a space they have used for years.

The arguments I’ve seen are usually emotive and include:

1. Segregating trans people is like apartheid.

This is of course, untrue. The solution for apartheid was for all spaces to be used by both black and white people. Transactivists don’t want to do away with segregation; they want it to remain but to have the right to choose which category they are in.

2. It’s outing

In most cases, this is nonsense. It’s generally perfectly obvious which sex men are.

3. It’s demeaning

This is emotive, of course. What “it’s demeaning”really means when a man claims it is “you are demonstrating the fact that you don’t really believe I’m a woman”.

4. You can’t force us to use it/how are you going to enforce it/will you be doing a genital check for everyone?

This, of course, is the crux of it. These men want access to women’s spaces and are willing to take it. They are telling us they will take it, whatever women want, and they try to shame us by suggesting it’s us who are “obsessed with genitals”.

Currently society is aiding and abetting them in doing it. There have never been laws regarding which toilet men and women used, but it was understood that no decent man would invade women’s spaces, so any man who did could reasonably be assumed to have bad intentions and could be forcefully removed if necessary.

Now, as seen in the Wi Spa incident, random men will no longer help women when a predatory man has invaded their space and will now argue that “he is probably a woman, so you should stop complaining.”

because you would be outing so many people who have lived in their identity for years- there are plenty of people who are trans and passing, contrary to the popular mumsnet belief that all trans people are men in drag 🙄. You would be demanding people disclose a part of their identity that is so open to personal risk and harm- just see the comments in this thread- just to go to the loo.

I’ve never been exposed to male genitalia in public toilets- I have in bus stations, in my own home, at a children’s event.

read the Trans Issue by Shon Faye, it’s a great perspective on the reality of trans existence and the barriers in place for many people who don’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

When I still lived at home in a touristy bit of Ireland, there were a couple of ordinary local bars and then this god awful place that took coach trips of Americans from Dublin and Galway, for the allegedly trad “Oirish” experience. After a while something weird happened. The tourists knew that the Oirish place was all cod, and avoided it and instead went in the local pubs, and frankly pissed off the locals. So the locals started drinking in the Oirish place to get away from them.

I think of this when I read about third spaces and “other” toilets. The TW want the authentic experience. The actual women will end up being forced out to keep away from them.

I saw a TM interviewed and they were asked about a third space, eg accessible toilet.

Apparently that would be, "demeaning",

Ok for me though, an actual woman with a disability.

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish I've never heard anyone suggest organisations need to provide 4 toilets or changing rooms.
If you think spaces should be segregated by sex you need 2, if you believe spaces should be segregated by gender identity then you'll need a couple of hundred.

If you believe like many people do, that providing sex separation is the first priority, but accept that some people for whatever reason are uncomfortable with spaces for their own sex then a third gender neutral space, that can be used by anyone, is often suggested as a compromise.

These are two cartoons in a much longer sequence, but they made me smile. As has already been said: they don't want their own space, they want ours and they want us to be there to validate them / be intimidated by them / experience their power at being able to do this at all.

(The cartoons are quite large, you will have to click on them to see them in full).

That's why most campaigns are about inclusion

By removing female only spaces etc to accommodate the wants of a subset of men who dislike the fact they are men, without giving a flying fuck about the rights or protections of actual women and girls who need those spaces to remain single sex.

Funny how some men are allowed to say they don't feel safe in men's toilets but women aren't allowed to object when those men want to be in their spaces.

There is a male transitioner who has recently released a book discussing being trans and their motivations in having surgery. This is an extract from a part adapted in a national newspaper.

Where does this leave me, eight years after I walked into Charing Cross Hospital, to an operating theatre where my body was changed irrevocably? I no longer think I am a woman; women are female while I am male.

I have also discovered something deep-seated about myself — that what prompted me to transition was not, in fact, the desire to be a woman but that I was sexually aroused by the thought of myself as a woman.

This is an unusual and little understood sexual condition known as autogynephilia.

Google that last word.

Taken from here