Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different,

In my experience this is just not true. There are violent men yes.

I canvassed my male family and friends at a gathering last summer: how would you react to a transwoman using the gents when you are there?

The response was pretty well "no reaction, men go in, wee, go out."

And "men hate everyone who's different" is a dreadful statement.

I don't even think of people as 'being trans' I have to say, What I see is people 'presenting in a manner associated with the opposite sex'.

It is truly remarkable isn't it. It requires those photos to be ever so carefully curated as well. And usually some extensive post production work.

Incidentally TRAs would hate mixed sex for everyone. Men like Dolatowski would then have to risk the fathers of the girls they want to abuse being there too. The decent men, the men who see things for what they are and who aren't keen on their partners and daughters being used as unconsenting props at best.

Katie Dolatowski springs to mind (unfortunately) on this thread. Escalated his criminal activity, first voyeurism (no meaningful sanction for that) then attacked a girl in the women's toilets. Then put in a women's centre when released. Charming 6ft 5 criminal - why should he get to be in women's spaces?

Why should that girl be traumatised / assaulted for the sake of men's feelings?

Every trans identified man who uses women's toilets is placing their comfort (or whatever) above a child's right to be safe from people like Dolatowski.

The good men stay out so the bad men stand out.

I would RATHER completely mixed sex for all, all the time, than the current situation where it's only the men who won't take no for an answer in the women's. However, I would much prefer single sex toilets for dignity, privacy and (women's and children's) safety then a third space for anyone who wants to use it / doesn't believe sex is real.

I dont understand it either really, but the people here who say we only need two are equally delusional. I try to use the mens room when i can, but a lot of the time i hear "your in the wrong bathroom" because a man assumes im a woman, and so i leave and wait until its empty because i dont know how he'll react to me saying im trans. if women couldnt convince men to be nice in 10,000 years how are tw supposed to have convinced them in 50. it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different, and even if exogenous estrogen doesn't make you nearly as weak as a female it does make you several times weaker then non trans males.

I mean, whipping a cock out and weeing into the urinal should do it TBH...

Women aren't your mother, we're not here for you to hide behind.

The concept of "passing" is an odd thing to bring into the discussion (as a pp did) as it rests on the idea that to be a woman is to be female - an unacceptable belief for many TRAs (not those that accept they are male but wish to be female).

If you're saying that trans people should be able to use the toilet for their sex, then I fully agree. They shouldn't be made to use a third space.

Replace ‘trans’ in the thread title with ‘black’ or even ‘gay’, and you’ll see.

No, because black women and gay women are women. Males are not.

I didn't quote the statistics but the point was the same
I must've used a banned word

That said, I’ve yet to meet a transwomen who passed.

I could count on one hand the number of MTFs I'm aware of who pass even in a picture. IRL they don't sound like women or come across as women. There's always something off.

Deleted for quoting the statistics of His Majesty's Prisons Service??

The women's facilities are not for weak people, they're for women. Not men on medication, not old men, not disabled men, not injured men, not any men. It's not that difficult.

There is no recorded incident of TW being harmed by men in men's facilities, but there are of women and children being harmed by TW in women's facilities. How many harmed women is acceptable to you, as the price for men with special identities to feel safe? Because for me it's none.

Careful @nothingcomestonothing Your comment might be deleted for pointing that out. Mine just was!

The available evidence doesn't necessarily support that assertion...

Why do minorities object to segregation? That’s a tough one!

Nice try

Men aren't a minority.

most trans people aren't pervy fetishists who hate women

Can you even hear yourself?

I mean, I am really relieved that MOST are not pervs, phew! Guess I'll just have to suck it up if I come across one who is.

How about instigating that tried and tested safeguarding rule, no men in spaces set aside for women. Job done. No pervy fetishists who hate women.

Say trans people somehow band together and campaign for third spaces.

You have a railway station with a set amount of space. Where does the money come from to change the layout and fund the works?

How much money has been thrown at Stonewall and other charities, who pissed it up a wall campaigning for men to have access to women’s spaces?

Imagine how far along we’d have been if instead of trying to force men into spaces where they don’t belong, they had instead invested in making positive changes towards provision of third spaces.

And that campaign would likely have ultimately been successful as it is a reasonable request.

Why do minorities object to segregation? That’s a tough one!

Some transmen use the men's loos . I have a male family member who had a trans man as a fellow class member and who made a big thing of going to the men's. My relative found this really awkward and avoided going to the toilets when this person was in there as was very much aware that this person was not male and felt very embarassed about it. (The trans man also would berate gay men for not wanting to date them and wonder why ? Relative was tempted to point out the glaring obvious reason why). Have known of other trans men using male toilets also.
As for why trans women do not wish separate trans spaces , I would suggest OP that it is all the reasons PP's have mentioned. They require validation as women and need to use female spaces and females in order to get that. An attempts by gender critical feminists to reason with them has been deemed transphobic .

Most of us are using facilities and services with limited budgets and we're pragmatic and realistic!

It literally costs £0 for men to keep out of women's spaces, sports, prisons, hospital wards, rape crisis services etc etc.
£0

That's why most campaigns are about inclusion. Because most people (and most trans people) aren't elite athletes, or in the top income bracket. Most of us are using facilities and services with limited budgets and we're pragmatic and realistic!

This

And most trans people aren't pervy fetishists who hate women

Well there was an issue with having a Nonbinary category in the states IIRC, where the parent of a competitor said that they should have a male NB category and a female NB category or else it wasn't fair!

The point with sports is that while I have heard TRAs saying 'genitals don't do sport, stop getting fixated on genitals' etc
And of course they are right. But it's not about the genitals FFS. It's about the bodies attached to those genitals! In the same way, gender identities don't play sport.

So I don't think it is complicated. Keep the sports that need to be single sex for safe and fair competition, single sex. Gender identities can stay out of it.