Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

Have you RTFT?

I saw a reddit thread where a transwoman was complaining about not being housed in the womens dorm at university. I believe in America

They had only started transitioning over the summer and still looked male (they admitted that)
They had to share a room with another student- the college apparently asked all the ladies if they would share and were told no

The accommodation offered was a mixed block with a gay male room mate who was supportive of trans rights. You would think a happy compromise

But no - the commentators decided that they should complain and force one of the ladies in the womens block to share with them as to do otherwise was against their human rights. They needed to contact the local trans rights movement, protest yadda yadda

This is the problem - their rights to be seen as female trumps everyone elses rights. There is no compromise

I also think it would interesting, for
once, that people in this section of Mumsnet actually consider Transmen (female to male trans) when thinking about toilets… not just Transwomen, I think the issue is more complex when you consider Transmen in Mens loos

They won't, any more than they use the unisex spaces which are available now. The use of the unasked and unconsenting women in the spaces is what makes the spaces desirable. They will try to go wherever then women go.

There was a TW who was allowed to change in the women's changing rooms of a women's sport (was it rugby? Can't remember) so the women started changing in their cars. TW complained. A women's book group lost their public space to meet because TW wouldn't stop trying to join in when asked not to, so the women started meeting in a members house instead. The TW called the police and wanted the police to force them to let him in!

It's not the space, or what you call the space, it's the women in the space.

Oh no, I'd hate anyone to think I'm so very lame

I don't need to twist your words, when you write a post about how it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different, and even if exogenous estrogen doesn't make you nearly as weak as a female it does make you several times weaker then non trans males.

If TW are vulnerable to male violence (an assertion for which I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever) that is, frankly, not my problem. And if they are also weakened by the wrong sex hormones they choose to take (again, seen no evidence) also not my problem.

If men with special identities have a problem with men without special identities, that is a men problem for men to sort amongst themselves. It's nothing to do with me. Women are not the world's mum, we don't exists to solve everyone's problems, make everyone happy, to budge up, make room, be kind, or sacrifice our own wants and needs so others can have more. Not my circus.

I remember hearing Grayson Perry saying that when he went to cross dressing* groups they always thought that anyone who turned up in jeans and a jumper had taken it too far.

*as it was called then.

Okay, thanks for explaining a bit more and I'm sorry for snapping at you. Maybe I took the bit about dressing like a 40 year old office worker from the early 90s the wrong way! 😂

If the truth be told, I'm still working out what I think about clothing choices. I really do believe that both sexes should wear what they like, if men want to wear skirts they should. But then I'm conflicted because I think they get more of a free pass if they do. For example, if I went to work looking like Tessa Ganserer I'd never be taken seriously
https://genevievegluck.substack.com/p/germany-trans-identified-male-politician

Anyway, I don't want to derail. I agree with PP
In practical terms what you wear makes no difference to whether you are male or female, which is what spaces like toilets must be based on.

Quite. We should have Women's and Women Only spaces. Then the trans can go in the Women's can't they!!

It's an interesting point and I think whether "appearance" itself actually matters depends on whether you think a woman is female (hence some TW try to appear female- bodied) or whether you think a woman is male or female with an internal sense or feeling of something, in which case it follows that what you wear is irrelevant.

In practical terms what you wear makes no difference to whether you are male or female, which is what spaces like toilets must be based on.

I think gender-neutral spaces are actually springing up in more and more places as 3rd spaces. It could work well.

Disabled people are a minority. Funnily enough as a member of that minority I'm eternally grateful when out for the toilet facilities provided to accommodate my disability when I'm not well enough to use the women's toilets. That doesn't make me feel segregated, it makes me feel included.

If TW and TM don't want to use the correct sexed toilets then unisex ones as well is the most logical solution to ensure that those who feel uncomfortable or unsafe sharing with either their own sex or the opposite sex that everyone has a loo they can use. That's not segregation. So why they object is beyond me. There will be plenty of trans allies who will want to use the unisex as well to show solidarity or because they just aren't fussed so thrans people won't be outing themselves by using them. But I don't want men, no matter how they feel about themselves, in my single sex female provided spaces.

i clearly said third spaces are needed not that going into the womens is needed, twisting someone else words so u can get yourself angry and feel self righteous is so very lame.

It was a reaction to the bit about passing. Someone not dressing the same as everyone else makes you do a second look, so it prevents some transwomen from ‘passing’. I imagine it’s why transmen are more successful at passing as they are able blend and dress like men do appear to be a small man.
I also don’t want them in our bathrooms and I don’t care what they wear.

When the problem is described as transwomen being unsafe in the men’s toilet, why isn’t the correct reaction work to make it safe? Are there posters in the men’s toilets telling them transwomen are welcome in that space and should be treated as such?

I'm more bothered about the physical presence of males in women's spaces than what they wear. What's your view on that @OnceinaMinion ?
I find your post quite unpleasant.

ive never seen one who actually dresses like a woman, especially a middle aged woman. It’s some weird outdated view of what they wear.
Tight clothes, inappropriate shoes, always a skirt.
There was a young man who went into a local shopping centre every lunchtime and walked about, looking back I see it was for attention as they were never shopping, just walking round and round. Anyway he dressed like a 40 year old office worker from the early 90s, he must have been about 20.

Reminds me of one of the marathons (Boston?) that made a 3rd catergory for the non binaries.

The parent of one of the female non binaries complained, without a hint of irony, that it was unfair and that they should have a non binary 'male' category and a non binary 'female' category, because their child had obviously no fucking chance of winning against men.

So the men are able to compete or cheat and win in all 3 categories. Hurrah for 'inclusion' at the expense of actual women!

I'm a woman and no ,mistaking me for anything else.

I have never had a problem using a men's bathroom. I think the only time anyone commented was to say they would 'guard' the door so I wasn't disturbed.

TRAs tell us that cubicles keep women safe from men that come into women's spaces and it doesn't matter who the person in the next cubicle is. Somehow this does not apply to transwomen using the gents, the cubicle couldn't possibly provide any protection and having to piss next to another bloke is life threatening.

@MadeOfAllWork
The argument though would be that you haven’t noticed all the transwomen who do pass. Yes, I’ve noticed transwomen but how many transwomen were there that I didn’t notice because they passed.

This line of thought has always seemed flawed to me. It's like anything in nature, the extremes are rare, and the less extremes are more common. Things fall on a bell curve.

You could say there were a lots of 7 foot tall people around and I just hadn't seen them, and it would be totally possible that by chance I've just not encountered the 7" people. BUT if that were the case I'd expect to have seen way more 6'10" people than I ever have. And 6'8" people should be absolutely everywhere.

Completely passing is logically far harder than very nearly passing, and so if there were a decent number of completely passing people out there, there should be loads and loads of people who very nearly pass but don't, and also people who do completely pass but we know they're trans because they're open about it. Where are those people?

As we well know according to TRA’s misgendering or looking at them funny is literal violence so that’s more the reality that someone did a double take at seeing a 6 foot bloke in a leather mini and fishnets in the ladies and thats enough for them to scream ‘OMG transphobia we’re not safe’

There are so many filters on those photos. They ways look weirdly 'off'. You can always, always tell in real life. You can tell from the far end of the street/ office/ wherever. A woman,no matter how butch, still moves likes a woman. A man can never replicate that.
We were waiting for a member of our walking group to turn up. That member is a trans woman.Someone in the group said "Oh thats X coming up the hill". New member who had not met that member ( and had no idea of the situation)said "Nah, that's a bloke". Yes it it but heaven help anyone who admits it.

I honestly don't get the naivity of those that can't see that this isn't just about a small number of men who think their special feelings make them women.

It's about the complete removal of ALL female only spaces, services and sports. It is removal of all laws already in place that protect females on the basis of their SEX. Not any made up gender identities. The removal of women's right to define themselves as a separate sex class with unique needs based on their sexed bodies.

You cannot allow 'some' men in. It's all or nothing. So why are the men's feelings given priority over the very real danger to women and girls by taking away their single sex spaces?

When men are allowed to redefine woman solely because they feel like it, but women aren't allowed to define themselves separately to these men, it shows exactly which sex has all the power.

There are NO valid reasons why this particular subset of men must use female facilities.

The solution to them not liking using the men's isn't women being forced to accommodate them. It's men's issue to fix their own behaviour towards non conforming men.

The entire premise of gender identity ideology falls apart under even the most basis scrutiny. That's why they won't ever defend it here. All they have is emotional blackmail and threats.

Like the ploppers who come with their cries that "mumsnet is a hotbed of transphobia" giving no actual coherent, logical argument for their ideology.

What exactly does a mentally unwell, vulnerable teenage girl with dysphoria have in common with an adult male who gets sexually aroused at the thought of himself as a woman?
Such a bizarre thing that these two very different groups with very different motives are now being placed in the same category.

As a woman I want spaces that only have biological females and small children ( with their female adult) in. If transwomen had grown up as actual women they wouldn't have to be told why biological women don't want biological men in their spaces. They are men through and through and have no idea what it is like to feel vulnerable in a space .Transwomen are not women they are a sub set of men.

if women couldnt convince men to be nice in 10,000 years how are tw supposed to have convinced them in 50. it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different,

Why is it down to women to convince men to be nice, it is not the role of women to solve everything. What a ludicrous statement. Men have held the levers of power and the finance to enable that for those 10,000 years - the buck stops with them. What's prevented men sorting this out - incompetence? apathy?

Men do not hate everyone who is different, all the men I know (and I know a lot) from across the classes, religions, ethnicities have NO, yes that is correct, NO problem with TW in male spaces and would stand up for the TW should a.n.other male in there object to their presence.

The idea that TW who use male spaces are being beaten to a pulp is bullshit, utter bullshit there is not ONE recorded incident of that happening.

Men who seem to quite like it when there is a third category offered in sporting events where there is a cash prize. It means they can 'win' even if they would be quite far down the rankings in the men's category. Women are still going to get beaten in a third category.