Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

But that still doesn’t address the reason for gaps under the doors, that if someone’s taken ill it’s much easier to realise and get them help.

You can have perfectly good unisex facilities though. Every office I’ve ever worked at has always had them (which I prefer as I think cubicles are undignified for privacy reasons). A full door and inside is both the toilet the sink and a dryer.
So I’m not against those, I just don’t think in reality developers will ever build them in busy places like a shopping centre.

It depends, of course, on what the objective is.

If the objective is to provide comfortable, safe and dignified facilities for all, then third spaces are the obvious solution.

If the purpose is primarily to provide ego/self validation for trans identified people, then only the facilities which 'coincide with one's gender identity' will do

Mixed sex facilities serve nobody's needs for comfort and dignity, nor do they provide cross sex validation. So what is the point?

If you're quite new to all this, op, and just getting your head around it (as much as possible), the thing that answered where I stood was the Wii Spa.
Woman defending naked women and children in a spa, where an actual bloke with a semi on was sat in the pool with them. She went to complain and was getting shouted down by beardy blokes in reception. Aaargh
Turned out to be a previous sex offender as well, if I remember correctly. ? Best look it up. I can't do it!! Blood pressure.

I cant burn any more bras, theres no budget for replacement!

I didnt fucking say it was.

i mean my personal opinion is I don’t think there’s a solution that works for both trans folks and women

And why the fuck is that women's problem to solve?

The solution that works for actuall women is for ALL men to stay out of female only spaces.

It's not about the space, or inclusion, or actual need, or even about both sexes of transitioners. It's all about power, and the control of men over women on a binary, sexed basis.

This, exactly.

Good summary.

In short the only possible reason that those advocating for women to lose genuinely single sex spaces (Keir Starmer with his 1% of women with penises and the rest) can have is to consider women not deserving of full human rights, unlike men.

To consider women as resources that it's ok for men to use, even if those women don't consent to that use.

It's not as if there aren't now countless examples of male criminals using self ID into women's spaces to harm women and children (Katie Dolatowski and the rest). So it must be that the people pushing this think it's ok for those women and children to be used in this way.

And even when they go so far as to commit a serious criminal offence, often the sentence isn't that long (Dolatowski) and they're out fairly soon and in a position to offend again - still with access to unconsenting women and girls in so-called (but not really because the providers lie) single sex spaces.

There's a kind of extension that no female-only spaces are permitted to exist even if there is a mixed sex women's provision (or multiple ones) widely available.

If there are consenting women in a mixed sex women designated space that is being nicely called 'single sex' but a separate female only provision for the women who cannot use the mixed sex space - the consenting women won't do. The target is to get to the non consenting women and own them and their space. So it's not so much about a separate space for trans people being unacceptable as the existence of any female space a man cannot own being unacceptable. Regardless of the impact on that female.

See: Willoughby walking a long way to intentionally pee on the territory when a female only space was provided at a distance with a large mixed sex facility directly there, and the current insane tantrums that one single solitary small female only lesbian club is daring to exist amongst all the mixed sex groups everywhere. The horror that a female only rape crisis group could not exist - even in a separate building - alongside 3 separate options that male people with TQ+ identities could choose from, because it's sheer existence was an insult.

It's not about the space, or inclusion, or actual need, or even about both sexes of transitioners. It's all about power, and the control of men over women on a binary, sexed basis.

I’m not quite sure of your point?

i am commenting on the issue of sex based toilets working both ways.

i mean my personal opinion is I don’t think there’s a solution that works for both trans folks and women. I really don’t know the solution other than completely taking away cubicle toilets and it always being a standalone unisex bathrooms similar to what we have at work.

The only ones who appear to continually be unbothered are men.

The Anne Coombes incident is the reason DS no longer has swimming lessons at the Mercure in Sheffield - I'm not on board with allowing anyone into the women's changing room based on 'identity' rather than biology. DS is 6 years old, he's allowed into the women's changing room with me - but a 65-year-old male? Not appropriate or acceptable.

I'm not sure that many transmen do pass. I frequently see young women presenting in 'masculine' ways ( men's shirts, sleeves rolled, up, tattoos, downy facial hair) and it is almost as obvious as the men presenting as women; although sometimes it takes a few more observations to confirm.

We have three in our area,the one I see most often favours a long,floaty skirt worn with a filthy anorak and daps.

My sister's neighbour is a floral leggings and off the shoulder jumper kinda guy and the third one(who I haven't seen since before Christmas)wears a flimsy,see through maxi dress all year round,

A lot of transpeople might pass, in a careful photo online. Any of the people pictured below might. But a candid photo with other humans, or an encounter in the loos in the real world, is quite different.

I don't know if TRAs ever stop to consider the optics of the (not very)veiled threat that hoards of beefy TM will be scaring elderly relatives in women's loos. Probably not.

The difference is : trans men are women. They aren't a threat to men. They are choosing to put themselves in a small degree of danger if they choose to use the gents, rather than inflicting the threat of danger on others.

How people can't tell this whaterboutery isn't the ace in the hole they think it is beggars belief. It's an opposite!

Transmen, to state the obvious, experienced growing up female, and therefore in general have a much better understanding of how women feel on this topic. I believe many transmen who use testosterone are fully aware of the effect their presence in women’s spaces would have and therefore they avoid using them.

My personal feeling is that anyone who has undergone the significant bodily changes that testosterone causes, of either sex, to the point where they look obviously male (whatever their sex) should avoid using women’s spaces. Of course, there are detransitioners who look somewhat masculine, but I believe we need to ensure they feel welcome in women’s spaces.

The (over)use of cross sex hormones is undoubtedly going to cause some social problems in the coming years. It’s not going to be easy and I don’t think we should pretend it is.

I do enjoy a lovely sweeping generalisation.

so if we push for sex based bathrooms, your ok with passing and transitioned transmen using them?

That's why a lot of transmen use gender neutral facilties, or the men's if they are aware they pass. They know they would freak out women so choose to be respectful.
Because they are women.
Non-passing transwomen have no such respect. Because they are men and don't give a shit about women.
Another tell tale difference.

I have yet to ever see a valid response to the question of trans men in women’s spaces.

”even if they are fully passing as male?”

I CAN TELL! I’ve got super abilities to tell biological sex!

“eveh if they are fully transitioned and have a penis? I thought we didn’t want a penis in the space? “

Its not a REAL penis!

I know some trans men who if in the bogs at John Lewis would give my Mum the absolute fright of her life.

alittleprivacy · Yesterday 17:49

Oops, I meant middle class, fairly sensible and conservative, rather than 20 something style going clubbing etc!