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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

805 replies

fromorbit · 12/02/2024 21:09

'Particularly when it comes to questions around women's safety and health, biological sex is important.' Parents need to be involved in schools.

Rishi Sunak is asked 'why should LGBT people vote Conservative?'
GB News forum footage here:
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

OP posts:
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37
AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 10:53

Thanks red, great post
The reason I describe GB News as "the mouthpiece of the Conservatives" isn't because of the content they cover. It's because of the sheer volume of current and former conservative MPs they have as both presenters and guests.

That must be a deliberate market positioning on the part of the owners. So that indicates an inherent bias. If they wanted to correct it they could also pay some left wing politicians an inordinate amount to present shows on there. But they don't.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 10:44

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:19

😂
Sorry, are you trying to imply GB News and the BBC are the same, just one is left wing and one is right wing?
Good grief. For starters, the BBC isn't stuffed to the gills with current and former Labour MPs presenting "current affairs" programmed. Neither is C4 news.

No but they have diversity programmes and programmes on diversity which are done because of a more left wing/liberal belief about representation and understanding representation.

And as such have an agenda along these lines. Both the BBC and C4 run campaigns for various 'weeks' or 'months'. Such as Black History month for example.

Not only this but Trevor Phillips did a documentary for the BBC exploring whether these sort of diversity drives to improve representation within staff and were effective or whether they were flawed within their own right.

His point was that whilst they were positive to a degree, they tended to be biased along socio-economic lines and what was under represented was voices from working class communities, particularly white ones. Ethnic communities were better represented but again they tended to come from wealthier backgrounds.

When the Brexit vote happened there was a fracture in British politics. It had been happening for a while but it's an important one to understand.

Labour historically had been the party of the working class blue collar worker whilst the Conservatives had been the party of the white collar traditional middle class. But what happened is there is a feeling that Labour came detached from it's grass roots and became the party of the educated and more middle class and began to ignore issues at a more localised level. Social issues centred on poverty and disenfranchisement on a more basic level have gone on. Much of the Labour voting North became disenchanted at poor local governance (and frankly outright corruption) at the same time. Economics changed and the North began to struggle. None of this is helped by the fact that the most economically deprived don't vote at all, so there's less point in chasing those votes in elections, so there's no incentive for Labour to continue to prioritise some of these issues. In the face of this, anti-european right wingers saw an opportunity. It was Farage who capitalised on it and took votes.

This destabilised British politics.

And the Tories have been trying to make a grab back for those votes ever since as they lost so many of their more educated middle class pro-Eu voters. They succeeded in 2019. But those voters are still dissatisfied because the issues they were concerned about haven't been resolved by Brexit (they won't, because they aren't actually rooted in European issues). And the more regionalised issues tied up with economics and infrastructure aren't being listened to.

Labour now has captured that educated middle class vote which includes a much poorer young generation. It's more internationally focused and travel is an important part of the culture. But it's failing to engage with the domestic grass roots socio-economic issues of this country. It'd rather talk about identity rather than proper funding for well ... Just about anything. Because there is an awareness there's no money even if they win an election. This kinda suits the Tories too.

But my point here is that the BBC and C4 markets remain much more middle class and 'trendy' and both have an issue with broadening their appeal beyond that. In fairness to C4 this is actually written into it's remit, but this effectively makes it naturally biased even if it's not entirely obvious.

The BBC has made a lot of effort to try and reach a more working class audience. Quite frankly without a huge amount of success.

If the BBC was so unbiased, why would this be an issue?

GB news is reaching an audience that arguably weren't being served previously. Is that because it's biased or because other channels were biased and weren't fully serving their audiences?

I think the BBC does a good job and generally is good at impartiality. But it still has huge issues too - a good example is the headlines it's run about the conflict between women's rights and trans rights have been undeniably biased at times. The BBC has had to run apologies over comments going unchallenged about JKRowling.

Where the BBC does badly is on this more 'invisible' biased - where it doesn't receive a pile of complaints and people just switch off. And that needs to be on your radar. And that does fall along socio-economic lines.

If you work from that perspective, it also puts a new angle on representation on GB news. It is different, and certainly less professional and it could do a lot better on fact checking. I do think it's biased, but I think it's a respond to a lot of bias on other channels which falls under this 'invisible' issue.

GB news ISN'T my bag. It ISN'T my political views. It ISN'T unbiased. It ISN'T always responsible, professional or accurate. Quite frankly I don't like it.

BUT

I do think there IS an inherent problem in British broadcasting in terms of bias (which is difficult to the newspaper market and is regulated differently) and GB News has come to exist because of this bias within the traditional broadcasters and issues arising from it.

There is a cohort of voters who do not believe they are being listened to by ANY of the traditional political parties - INCLUDING the Conservatives.

If anything Sunak has been chasing that vote, which is more to the right of the conservatives - which is where the Reform Party sit.

This is about the Reform Party vote in many respects.

The fact that there's a whole pile of comments about GB News being the mouth piece of the Conservatives is indicative of falling to understand this dynamic. It's not.

Sunak appearing on the channel isn't trying to push an agenda for the conservatives overall. It's about chasing votes on the right wing who may not vote conservative. These voters do not engage with the likes of the BBC anymore because they feel disenfranchised and alienated from it.

Meanwhile we have a liberal/left wing group which hates GB because of its very existence. They think it should be taken off air and banned.

What we have in effect is almost two Britains that have arisen where there is very little overlap or shared view of the world.

Neither group is more important than the other. Both should be served. Both are biased in their own way. But both are serving the public in a way that is arguably also unbiased. This seems like a nuts concept and paradoxical to simultaneously believe that you can have more left wing/centre broadcasters who essentially serve a left/centre and centre right audience and have a more right wing broadcaster who essentially serve a right/more right audience but both are not beholden to a singular view either and are representing a range of views within their box. If anything I'd argue that the more traditional broadcasters have been failing in their bias obligations for a long time and this situation has arisen as a natural consequence of that. Precisely because the politicians that have appeared on them for years and years have failed to be fully representative of the public and it's social issues.

I've been a huge advocate on here for reminding people to try and spot the unseen and invisible issues going on that are hidden by various agendas or poor data collection which forgets the principle of those who are not vocal in complaining. It's a really useful life lesson to look out for groups or individuals who are disenfranchised in various ways. What goes under the radar and what has been able to fester due to neglect?

LarkLane · 20/02/2024 10:30

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pronounsbundlebundle · 20/02/2024 10:29

The BBC might be balanced between left and right but they're not balanced in terms of child safety and women's rights nor offender and victim. They have a lot of journalists and an editorial line on many programmes which are misogynist and anti-safeguarding.

Savile was enabled by the BBC and things really haven't changed. I complained about an article once which described 14 year old girls in India as 'sex workers'. Tumbleweed in response. Their MRA editorial line for most programmes (not all, but it's the general environment) is why I no longer pay my TV license.

And that's before you get to calling rapists 'she' and further trampling all over the victims and their families.

NotBadConsidering · 20/02/2024 10:21

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Datun · 20/02/2024 10:16

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:47

Lefties accused the BBC of bias too, just look at the outrage about how often Farage has been on question time. Or read the article I linked upthread about the BBC being "captured" by right wing think tanks.

It makes me think the BBC must be pretty balanced. I've never heard any implication that GB News is biased to the left however.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/05/rightwing-thinktanks-government-bbc-news-programmes

I'm not really bothered what news sources people use myself, I'm bothered about transparency of sources and following the reporting rules that are there to protect democracy.

The BBC has between 400 and 500 trans people working for them. Way out of proportion to the national average.

But it's massive, and anyone can accuse it of anything at a specific moment.

My point is that I, personally, would welcome the exact same amount of time being given to all sides in a debate, particularly this one. And particularly one where questions can be asked.

So yes, let's have Starmer on GB news.

The issue here being that pro trans people very rarely want their views aired, at all. Because the more people know, the less they agree.

So if people are going to complain about Sunak on GB news, they need to be aware that the solution probably isn't not to have him on there, but to have Starmer on there too. And that solution to be played out across the board.

Because I suspect their motivation is censorship, but that will backfire.

Hopefully.

EdithStourton · 20/02/2024 10:10

@Adam Ryan
I object to this view that all "information" is of equal value.
That wasn't what I read the poster as saying. I thought she said, 'I don't care where the info is from as long as it is accurate.'

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 10:03

Can we expect a factual discussion on the BBC prime time?

I’m keen on that one for sure

Get both in ask questions and get clarity

Snowypeaks · 20/02/2024 09:54

Great post, @RedToothBrush
This is a lesson I have had to learn and relearn throughout my adult life.

Signalbox · 20/02/2024 09:50

So funny when people think their preferred media is the neutral option.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 09:49

I want it to be reported factually and not used as a political pawn. So people can be clear about the issues and draw their own conclusions. Rather than this divided "right/wrong" debate.
I find it extremely weird that on here I seem to be percieved as some kind of left wing SJW who lives in a TRA echo chamber, while in real life my friends and family won't discuss trans issues with me because they think I'm a transphobe. Something is very out of whack on line with the discourse.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 09:48

I think some posters would like women just to suck up whatever the woke bros decide. That is not going to happen though.

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 09:45

And on women’s rights I’m not sure what the pp wants given half the media prefer to ignore it or promote men

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 09:44

I think posters on FWR are generally savvy on sources and agenda of whichever outlet

Labour too is influenced, of course it is it goes with the territory

Part of weakening the grip of unions was Labour’s shift, starting from Blair

Starmer wants to increase business funding for same reasons

maltravers · 20/02/2024 09:40

I assume the PM went on GB news, because the Beeb and others were not prepared to discuss this matter of the balance of rights. It should be discussed in a mature democracy. This issue doesn’t really affect white straight blokes, but it affects women, gay people, trans people. This is just like the Daily Mail covering GC stuff that other mainstream media kept away from. I was grateful to the DM and I’m grateful to GB news.

I read both the Guardian and bits of the Telegraph to try to get both angles. The bias of both is very annoying!

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 09:38

I'm not sure why you think I don't read other sources. I read all the links on here and analyse them and what I think of them. I actually get nearly all my information from here, the only news source I look at regularly is BBC.

As I said, I often post guardian links because it's not paywalled.

GB news/Tufton Street both have an agenda so I take what they say with a pinch of salt and fact check it. As I'm sure your Prof advised everyone to do.

I object to this view that all "information" is of equal value. It isn't. A piece of scientific peer reviewed research is far more likely to be accurate than my random Internet posting, for example.

On controversial topics its even more important to check sources. That's why I miss Gender Trender. She did a great job of referencing her sources and how she reached her conclusions. Policy Exchange, not so much.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 09:26

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:16

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I'm merely pointing out the Tufton Street organisations are not "non partisan" and information coming from them has an agenda.

First thing you learn in history, to analyse your sources and their potential motivations.

Yes.

Shame you haven't learnt that lesson too.

I've told this story on MN multiple times but I'll do it again now.

My lecturer at university made a point about this very well. His speciality was politics and propaganda. He also presented the module I did to BBC staff as part of their training programme. He was highly respected in his field.

He said that it wasn't just about sourcing. It was about balance in the media too. And not just sticking to listening to left wing OR right wing media. He made the point, and it's one of the few things that stuck in my mind very clearly from uni. I paraphrase here but this is vaguely what he said:

"You might think I'm a chain smoking, old fashioned, sexist white male who is right wing and only reads the Daily Mail. And you are all young, liberal and left wing. But be careful what you wish for in terms of censorship. Who censors the censors? Who decides what should be censored and what shouldn't be? Censorship is a very powerful and dangerous tool. If you shut down voices, you risk missing a very important issue to society. A democracy is built on the representation and sharing of multiple ideas and free speech. One day you might need the Daily Mail".

In the 90s he was writing books on how technology communication was changing and how this historically coincided with periods of great political instability and there was a period of 'wild west' where society struggled to cope because people wrote all sorts of unaccountable bullshit and passed it off as real. He was essentially saying that 'fake news' was a risk long before Trump came along and used the term.

He died not long after I left uni at a pretty young age. I do often wonder what he'd have made of the last few years.

My point here is that whilst you are busy lecturing others on MN on various threads about 'acceptable sources', you have also forgotten the issue of political bias (whilst also lecturing about that too).

It is useful and indeed healthy to listen to multiple views EVEN IF THEY HAVE BIAS and you are aware of this, because it helps you to think critically rather than accept blindly. It helps you to question what you are told and process it as having value as something which is valid or to help you to construct a better counter argument to the point.

There is also the issue, as so many left wing and liberal women, have found out in that sometimes you realise that your 'own side' is talking out of its arse or the 'other side' has a valid point about something.

This is true even when you know that the view you are hearing is a pile of tosh. It is good to learn where someone is coming from or why they believe x, y and z. You can't do this unless you actually take the time to listen to them. If you allow others to explain it for you, you end up with them creating falsehoods and filling in the dots for you but to their own interests. See the point about how JKRowling tweets multiple anti-trans comments that no one can ever quote or give a screenshot for.

When you restrict yourself to ONLY listening or valuing 'approved' sources you narrow your own mind.

The idiom about having one mouth but two ears and we should behave in proportion to this in life, by making sure we listen more than we speak definitely holds true.

There is no such thing as 'right' or 'wrong' sources. There is such a thing as sources understood and used wisely and carefully in multiple ways. You shouldn't just simply dismiss them because they ALL hold some sort of value and worth which you can use to help your understanding of a subject more fully.

And with that I shall get off my 'MN, this is how the media works, why it is important and how this isn't being properly taught in this country and is greatly misunderstood' soapbox.

NotBadConsidering · 20/02/2024 08:50

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AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:47

Datun · 20/02/2024 08:38

They're still biased.

And as for GB news, as a pp says they can just get Starmer on too. They may have already asked him. It's not as though people don't have form for not wanting to discuss the issue.

Personally, I don't mind which 'side' are invited. They can all be TRAs for all I care. Hearing people explain why they support gender ideology is often more useful in fact.

Lefties accused the BBC of bias too, just look at the outrage about how often Farage has been on question time. Or read the article I linked upthread about the BBC being "captured" by right wing think tanks.

It makes me think the BBC must be pretty balanced. I've never heard any implication that GB News is biased to the left however.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/05/rightwing-thinktanks-government-bbc-news-programmes

I'm not really bothered what news sources people use myself, I'm bothered about transparency of sources and following the reporting rules that are there to protect democracy.

Rightwing thinktanks run this government. But first, they had to capture the BBC | George Monbiot

Why are representatives of these shadily funded groups treated as impartial observers on news programmes? asks Guardian columnist George Monbiot

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/05/rightwing-thinktanks-government-bbc-news-programmes

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:42

NotBadConsidering · 20/02/2024 08:25

You are misrepresenting my posts. Either that or you have a comprehension issue. You seem to think that because I am mocking those people who shriek with horror at so-called “right wing” sources of information and association, that I personally deem so-called “right wing” sources of information as “more acceptable”, hence you saying “here is is more acceptable source for you”.

So either you do have a comprehension issue, or you’re deliberately being rude and misrepresentative.

Maybe the problem is with how you're communicating whatever point you want to make because I'm not getting it.
There's clearly some issue going on if you are interpreting what I'm posting as "shrieking with horror" and I'm not sure it's worth either of our time to continue.

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 08:41

Which outlets cover gender from a non TRA perspective?

There aren’t many. Women are ignored by half the media on this

Datun · 20/02/2024 08:38

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:19

😂
Sorry, are you trying to imply GB News and the BBC are the same, just one is left wing and one is right wing?
Good grief. For starters, the BBC isn't stuffed to the gills with current and former Labour MPs presenting "current affairs" programmed. Neither is C4 news.

They're still biased.

And as for GB news, as a pp says they can just get Starmer on too. They may have already asked him. It's not as though people don't have form for not wanting to discuss the issue.

Personally, I don't mind which 'side' are invited. They can all be TRAs for all I care. Hearing people explain why they support gender ideology is often more useful in fact.

NotBadConsidering · 20/02/2024 08:25

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:16

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I'm merely pointing out the Tufton Street organisations are not "non partisan" and information coming from them has an agenda.

First thing you learn in history, to analyse your sources and their potential motivations.

You are misrepresenting my posts. Either that or you have a comprehension issue. You seem to think that because I am mocking those people who shriek with horror at so-called “right wing” sources of information and association, that I personally deem so-called “right wing” sources of information as “more acceptable”, hence you saying “here is is more acceptable source for you”.

So either you do have a comprehension issue, or you’re deliberately being rude and misrepresentative.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 08:19

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 01:35

This is simply solved. Just invite Starmer on in the same format. And the audience can ask him questions in the same manner as Sunak. A TRA managed to question him so I'm sure Starmer would be delighted to answer a few questions from someone gender critical. If he refuses then that's his problem and investigations into bias should be dropped. It seems the left have got their biased media with the BBC and C4 but whine like a stuck pig if the Tories have the same. And the BBC and C4 have ten thousand times the coverage of GB News.
Don't tell me they aren't biased. Witness the number of gender ideologues they have on compared to the other side (was it 47 to 7 for women's hour) and some issues they just refuse to cover.

😂
Sorry, are you trying to imply GB News and the BBC are the same, just one is left wing and one is right wing?
Good grief. For starters, the BBC isn't stuffed to the gills with current and former Labour MPs presenting "current affairs" programmed. Neither is C4 news.