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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

805 replies

fromorbit · 12/02/2024 21:09

'Particularly when it comes to questions around women's safety and health, biological sex is important.' Parents need to be involved in schools.

Rishi Sunak is asked 'why should LGBT people vote Conservative?'
GB News forum footage here:
https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

https://twitter.com/GBNEWS/status/1757143443111841900

OP posts:
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37
AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:45

(I would probably file that in the "conspiracy theory" bucket, but just putting it here for balance!)

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:45

Oh and here.
I have no idea who "prospect" are, but that shouldn't matter apparently

A right-wing cabal, largely unaccountable, is waging war on the principles that made our public broadcaster great. It must not succeed

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/media/64534/how-the-government-captured-the-bbc

How the government captured the BBC

A right-wing cabal, largely unaccountable, is waging war on the principles that made our public broadcaster great. It must not succeed

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/ideas/media/64534/how-the-government-captured-the-bbc

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 12:42

If people want a left wing tv channel get your numbers together and have a market

I doubt it will happen but if that’s what posters want go for it

Makes no odds to me

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:40

eastern how on earth would you know if left wing people feel perfectly catered for by the bbc?
But, in reality, the endlessly repeated “left-wing BBC” narrative fits neither the facts nor most people’s perception

https://pressgazette.co.uk/comment-analysis/bbc-left-wing-bias/

Is the BBC left-wing? Not according to 80% of the British public

Is the BBC left-wing? Patrick Barwise and Peter York argue not, citing the results of a recent Yougov survey.

https://pressgazette.co.uk/comment-analysis/bbc-left-wing-bias

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 12:34

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:23

It's possible because they are very pushing the rules in a way other broadcasters aren't. Its quite damaging. Will be interesting to see if it drives an "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality and a similar left wing channel arises. Or whether we start to get televangelists on UK TV.

Only if there was a sizeable left wing market and tbf it’s catered perfectly well by the BBC so it’s unlikely

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:24

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 11:48

I'm sure had they written what they have whilst at the BBC they would have been a pogrom. Jenny Murray was retired for questioning the party line.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding but that seems quite a flippant use of the word "pogrom"?

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:23

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 11:11

GB News obviously want to appeal to a demographic

That is possible because the BBC is increasingly failing to make people feel heard

The market will likely grow, also with it reform party

It’s similar in many countries which are seeing a similar growth in politics to the right

It's possible because they are very pushing the rules in a way other broadcasters aren't. Its quite damaging. Will be interesting to see if it drives an "if you can't beat them, join them" mentality and a similar left wing channel arises. Or whether we start to get televangelists on UK TV.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:20

duc748 · 20/02/2024 11:16

Exactly. GBN aren't bothered about inviting more Labour figures on board, they're not attempting to become a 'balanced', BBC-like (!) set-up. They have their world-view, and that's that. I don't like the trend, though, of everyone selecting the media that best reflect their biases.

That's the problem duc channels in this country are bound to comply with impartiality in broadcasting rules. Those rules are meant to protect us from propaganda and politically motivated content, I think the rules are a good thing personally.
GB News don't appear to be that fussed about complying, hence multiple ofcom investigations.

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 12:17

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:13

If you think making GB news less bias involves George Galloway as a solution then I can't help you.

On the one hand you say you want more facts, but on the other you suggest George Galloway.

Galloway was 'the left wing' alternative on Russia Today. And way about as much of an alternative as it's possible to not be.

I was trying to think of the left wing equivalent of Farage or JRM, who would happily shock jock for cash! I personally don't like any of them! But it was a thought experiment of how GB news could be more impartial, if they wanted to be.

UltraLiteLife · 20/02/2024 12:03

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:20

Selecting the media you like is the road to hell as far as I’m concerned- just look at the US. Neither side understands the other because they don’t hear the other side and there is deep division. We have to fight tooth and nail to avoid this.

wrt to some of the discussion that Red has helpfully introduced.

Something has gone wrong with the flow of information. It’s not just that different people are drawing subtly different conclusions from the same evidence. It seems like different intellectual communities no longer share basic foundational beliefs. Maybe nobody cares about the truth anymore, as some have started to worry. Maybe political allegiance has replaced basic reasoning skills. Maybe we’ve all become trapped in echo chambers of our own making – wrapping ourselves in an intellectually impenetrable layer of likeminded friends and web pages and social media feeds.

But there are two very different phenomena at play here, each of which subvert the flow of information in very distinct ways. Let’s call them echo chambers and epistemic bubbles. Both are social structures that systematically exclude sources of information. Both exaggerate their members’ confidence in their beliefs. But they work in entirely different ways, and they require very different modes of intervention. An epistemic bubble is when you don’t hear people from the other side. An echo chamber is what happens when you don’t trust people from the other side.

Current usage has blurred this crucial distinction, so let me introduce a somewhat artificial taxonomy. An ‘epistemic bubble’ is an informational network from which relevant voices have been excluded* *by omission. That omission might be purposeful: we might be selectively avoiding contact with contrary views because, say, they make us uncomfortable…

An ‘echo chamber’ is a social structure from which other relevant voices have been actively discredited. Where an epistemic bubble merely omits contrary views, an echo chamber brings its members to actively distrust outsiders.

[People in an echo chamber are alienated from outside sources. Outside is labelled as malignant and untrustworthy. So, for people like Limbaugh follower under discussion] exposure to contrary views could actually reinforce their views. Limbaugh might offer his followers a conspiracy theory: anybody who criticises him is doing it at the behest of a secret cabal of evil elites, which has already seized control of the mainstream media. His followers are now protected against simple exposure to contrary evidence. In fact, the more they find that the mainstream media calls out Limbaugh for inaccuracy, the more Limbaugh’s predictions will be confirmed. Perversely, exposure to outsiders with contrary views can thus increase echo-chamber members’ confidence in their insider sources, and hence their attachment to their worldview. The philosopher Endre Begby calls this effect ‘evidential pre-emption’. What’s happening is a kind of intellectual judo, in which the power and enthusiasm of contrary voices are turned against those contrary voices through a carefully rigged internal structure of belief.

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

Begby, Endre, 'Evidential Preemption', Prejudice: A Study in Non-Ideal Epistemology (Oxford, 2021; online edn, Oxford Academic, 18 Mar. 2021), https://doi.org/10.1093/oso/9780198852834.003.0007

<p><em>Photo by Jim Young/Reuters</em></p>

Why it’s as hard to escape an echo chamber as it is to flee a cult | Aeon Essays

First you don’t hear other views. Then you can’t trust them. Your personal information network entraps you just like a cult

https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult

MrsOvertonsWindow · 20/02/2024 11:59

There's an ex BBC employee, Cath Leng, trying to challenge the BBC's bias over this. She's analysed their lack of output about women's rights and how they actively avoid reporting news in favour of anything drag, surrogacy etc. This is despite appointing very special "journalists" to cover identity issues:

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/the-bbcs-blind-spot

Her twitterX account is worth following:
https://twitter.com/leng_cath/status/1756599200941215920

https://twitter.com/leng_cath/status/1756599200941215920

duc748 · 20/02/2024 11:51

Are, or were people like Hannah Barnes actually employed by the BBC, or are they all free-lance, essentially self-employed?

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 11:48

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:42

It’s a bit concerning that neither Hannah Barnes nor Deb Cohen are still at the BBC. It may be unrelated to their work on the Tavistock issues (so out of kilter with the BBC on this issue generally) and is just about better opportunities elsewhere, I really hope so. Does anyone know anything on this?

I'm sure had they written what they have whilst at the BBC they would have been a pogrom. Jenny Murray was retired for questioning the party line.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:42

It’s a bit concerning that neither Hannah Barnes nor Deb Cohen are still at the BBC. It may be unrelated to their work on the Tavistock issues (so out of kilter with the BBC on this issue generally) and is just about better opportunities elsewhere, I really hope so. Does anyone know anything on this?

Apollo441 · 20/02/2024 11:34

GB News do have a presenter that believes TWAW. He hasn't been harassed out of his job. There have been robust discussions where (IMO) his views have been shown to be not underpinned by reason but they agree to disagree. I can't see the 'unbiased' BBC doing the same.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:20

Selecting the media you like is the road to hell as far as I’m concerned- just look at the US. Neither side understands the other because they don’t hear the other side and there is deep division. We have to fight tooth and nail to avoid this.

maltravers · 20/02/2024 11:17

Great posts Red. I think the situation was not helped by Johnson’s government refusing to offer anyone up for interview for years. I imagine that was to avoid scrutiny and accountability rather than to wreck the BBC but it has not helped in recent history in providing the sort of left/right balance on screen on that you should see.

duc748 · 20/02/2024 11:16

Exactly. GBN aren't bothered about inviting more Labour figures on board, they're not attempting to become a 'balanced', BBC-like (!) set-up. They have their world-view, and that's that. I don't like the trend, though, of everyone selecting the media that best reflect their biases.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:13

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 11:05

Really? You think someone like George Galloway wouldn't run a show on GB News for £1000 an hour? Or Lembit Opik?

If you think making GB news less bias involves George Galloway as a solution then I can't help you.

On the one hand you say you want more facts, but on the other you suggest George Galloway.

Galloway was 'the left wing' alternative on Russia Today. And way about as much of an alternative as it's possible to not be.

EasternStandard · 20/02/2024 11:11

GB News obviously want to appeal to a demographic

That is possible because the BBC is increasingly failing to make people feel heard

The market will likely grow, also with it reform party

It’s similar in many countries which are seeing a similar growth in politics to the right

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 11:05

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:02

That's Franky bollocks.

Offering money wouldn't attract left wing commentators.

It's attract left wing criticism.

The issue with the politicians themselves and the nature of cancel culture.

Really? You think someone like George Galloway wouldn't run a show on GB News for £1000 an hour? Or Lembit Opik?

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:02

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 10:53

Thanks red, great post
The reason I describe GB News as "the mouthpiece of the Conservatives" isn't because of the content they cover. It's because of the sheer volume of current and former conservative MPs they have as both presenters and guests.

That must be a deliberate market positioning on the part of the owners. So that indicates an inherent bias. If they wanted to correct it they could also pay some left wing politicians an inordinate amount to present shows on there. But they don't.

That's Franky bollocks.

Offering money wouldn't attract left wing commentators.

It's attract left wing criticism.

The issue with the politicians themselves and the nature of cancel culture.

RedToothBrush · 20/02/2024 11:01

AdamRyan · 20/02/2024 09:49

I want it to be reported factually and not used as a political pawn. So people can be clear about the issues and draw their own conclusions. Rather than this divided "right/wrong" debate.
I find it extremely weird that on here I seem to be percieved as some kind of left wing SJW who lives in a TRA echo chamber, while in real life my friends and family won't discuss trans issues with me because they think I'm a transphobe. Something is very out of whack on line with the discourse.

Factually accurate is what I want too.

My problem is two fold.

That we've had years where the accepted norm has been to accept that there was no issue for women with transwomen and there were no issues with transition generally.

It took MASSIVE effort by the team at newsnight to fight to investigate issues at the Tavistock. That was a battle with senior management which should never have taken place. It subsequently led to the Cass Review.

And this is what we are seeing repeatedly.

A failure to uncritically examine issues by the likes of the BBC who SHOULD be doing as per their remit.

Because there has been a failure due to undue internal politics and pressure from the likes of Stonewall, we've ended up in this position.

It's led to a lack of trust in the BBC for good reason.

Secondly, it IS important to understand why other people are believing falsehoods. Often it's precisely because of this failure point and then someone else comes along and provides an alternative explanation because of the failure to engage by the 'trusted sources' because it's deemed not politically correct or not a political priority. It's about festering unrecognised or deliberately ignored problems

And this is a pattern you will see across the world.

It's what Trump does well.

Ironically if you speak to people directly about the actual problem they are very reasonable people with a fair point. The issue is where their heads go in terms of who to blame and what the political solution is. If you have a political vacuum with a bunch of people who are passionate about an issue and will be swayed by just about anyone who engages with them and recognises something in their dissatisfaction.

This is the problem. Failure to acknowledge and engage.

If you start to recognise where things have gone wrong and why people have been alienated and have lost trust, you can actually do something about it. Just trying to shove it under the rug and ban it because it's got a bias and angle you don't like kinda has an opposite effect and forces people more into the arms of those misleading.

You've actually got to start to give a shit. It's the not giving a shit that is the issue.

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