Sunak telling Robin White that biological sex is important live on GB news

So you are saying that teachers should routinely deliberately withhold informaton from parents?
Should they do this unilaterally as individuals as they see fit without clear guidelines and without consulting with other staff or services if they think it inappropriate?
If they think it inappropriate to tell the parents, what criteria should this be? How can you be consistent throughout a school, nevermnd the country?
Should they be 'keeping secrets' for children, without involving others? How do you do this without causing power imbalances?
Or should they act within very narrow criteria to withhold information with the default to share info, nd if they do withhold only do so having consultanted with child protection services over the reason why the parent isn't suitable to be told?

Cos safeguarding.

You seem to be rather lacking in your understanding of basic level priniciples in safeguarding tbh.

But not in sex education as if its factual?

And if they are taught that they are neutral or fundamentally flawed because reality and science?

I think teachers do discuss these things in Philosophy and Ethics.

No, I'm saying i don't necessarily think teachers should have to disclose students showing "gender identity conflict" in all cases

So you are saying that parents shouldn't discuss behaviour in the classroom, relationships with other children and any possible safeguarding concerns with parents?

Is that what you are saying?

Its nothing like teen pregnancy.
Teen pregnancy is kids following their natural instinct to mate and then actually reproducing.

Its like a cult, where someone fills their head with ideas that will make life better / easy. Except its all just snake all. They would have have done any of this, without someone explaining how to.

Should we teach about anti-vax ideas?
Should we teach about holocaust denial?
Should we teach about flat earth?
Should we be creationist?
Should we teach Scientology?

Why don't we?

I find drawing parallels between the transgender ideology and anything based in biology like pregnancy misleading.

The only parallels are when people believe something about themselves.

What should teachers do if year 7 Johnny thinks he's voltron?

To use an actual example from DD time in year 7, which caused her to be called a transphobe for refusing to use said pronouns.

No of course not. Puberty blockers are harmful.
I think a teacher could be forgiven for not telling parents their year 7 is insisting on using "moon/moonself" pronouns at school.

Do you think a doctor prescribing puberty blockers etc without parents' knowledge is an example of safeguarding?

If there weren't so many children identifying as some kind of other identity I'd agree! I think the schools need to do some "deradicalisation"/protective teaching.

That's why I drew the parallel to teen pregnancy. When I was a teen there was uproar about teaching about sex and doctors prescribing contraception without parents knowledge, due to high levels of teen pregnancy. The reality was education/contraception was needed to stop it. Children needed to know their doctor would treat what they said confidentiality before they would engage. So conversely the education/confidentiality increased safeguarding.

I think that approach would be more useful. But I'm coming from a position of thinking the vast majority of teachers have their students best interests at heart. Maybe I'm too idealistic.

But we don't teach every crackpot theory starting with "...some people believe". You'd be there all day.

Especially as it's actually being promoted by men with a fetish.

I'd be happy for it to be taught as a sexist, dangerous ideology that has infiltrated schools, the government, the NHS and the police. That it's completely unevidenced, and many proponents of it are either hellbent on accessing women's spaces, or have a sexual fetish.

Sure.

But as an idea that we all have a gender identity? you can't even teach it in theory, because it falls apart three sentences in.

You'd have to get rid of non-binary for a start.

What's the bloody point in teaching an ideology that relies on something being both innate, and something you could acquire in middle age, but also changes from day to day??

You might as well teach wizardry.

frood I did specifically say I didn't want to derail, and suggested a separate thread, but posters seemed keen to know my views, so what do I do?

This was an interesting thread at first. Shame.

You could say the same about RE, if you were atheist!
I think we are very good in the UK at separating science from faith and we should use the same approach for this. "Some people believe...." with no value judgement on the belief.

I'm talking about children I know (all girls) who identify as non-binary or as "boys" and present androgynously. Having fights with their peer group about whether or not to use neo pronouns and boys calling themselves "superstraight" It seems to be common at 12/13. I'm not calling them transgender because I don't think its possible to be transgender at 12. Children that age are pushing boundaries and exploring how they make sense if the world.

I don't think all their gender stuff comes up because of what's taught in schools. Teenagers don't really pay that much attention to being told how the world is by adults, they pay attention to their peers. I think gender questioning at that age is now common because of the Internet.

To me the role of schools at that age is to give information so children can start to decide for themselves. Thereforw I think ignoring "gender identity" or saying its not real is counter productive, because the children are seeing it all around them. I think schools should address it as a theory, with pros and cons in an ethics lesson, and continue to teach human reproductive biology and male/female in biology lessons.

That's the same approach that would be applied to other debates that are similar, like "is climate change real?" Or "did god create the earth 6000 years ago?"

I think if we are serious about tackling transgender ideology we need to crack down on Internet content and making sure ISPs do proper age verification. This is in the "too hard" bucket for most governments and a lot of men don't want their porn habits interfered with. But trying to tackle gender issues in children by mandating how it's taught will make very little difference in my opinion.

GI makes little sense to me. I don’t feel that I have a gender identity that is or isn’t congruent with my sex. I am female end of.

The people who are pushing for 'gender identity' to be taught about in schools don't seem to be able to define it, so presumably it doesn't make sense to them either. But they still think it's really important that children learn about it. Why they think children should learn about this nonsensical concept is a mystery.

GI makes little sense to me. I don’t feel that I have a gender identity that is or isn’t congruent with my sex. I am female end of.

How about schools teaching that gender is a social construct that has fluctuated through the millennium and across cultures but is essentially always been a tool of the patriarchy that is harmful to both men and women? Didn’t that use to get taught in woman's studies at uni but would be good to discuss in schools. Whilst also simultaneously teaching that sex is binary and immutable and that we should love our bodies regardless of which sex we are….

However, the real culprit is social media and the algorithms designed to both inflame and keep people in their silos. Back when I was allowed to see DCs Insta accounts, as the DC are very TWAW from a #bekind perspective, the accounts were flooded daily with trans are beautiful accounts and the like of Ash whatstheirface and James something. Absolutely hated that deluge.

What do you mean by GNC

I think this is a crucial point.

Not that long ago there were gender non conforming children and children with gender dysphoria. The distinguishing feature was whether distress was experienced in relation to their sexed body.

At this time, there wasn't an assumption or expectation that ideas about gender would be necessarily form a significant part of one's identity.

I honestly can't find a single aspect of society that is better from the 'identity turn'

I don't think that supporting unconditionally stops family alienation either.

And this was being said by trans advocacy a few years back because it's about trying to run away from yourself and your family is your biggest reminder of this.

It's about deep self loathing regardless of how the family reacts

Removing transactivism from schools would be massive progress. The pressure parents feel when their children cite the dodgy activist groups defining parents as transphobes is bad enough. That these groups have been allowed to sell their unscientific, anti safeguarding nonsense to schools is grim.
Schools have been a massive grift for Stonewall and all the other lobby groups - from excessive DfE & local government funding to individual schools gaslit into believing that if they're not paying to be Stonewall champions they're somehow intolerant. Millions of ££ and tens of thousands of children believing wrong bodies can be fixed with a sex change and that their parents are transphobes if they don't support this.

Many of these groups will stop functioning when they're not able to appropriate government / school funding.

I also know people with GNC teens and I wouldn't want to be in the position of having to decide how to respond. It seems no win, whether a parent goes along with it or refuses to go along with it.

What do you mean by 'GNC' @AdamRyan?

I think it stands for 'gender non-conforming', but that's not what you're talking about is it?

You're not talking about girls who cut their hair short and who like maths and physics. You're not talking about boys who like baking cupcakes and fashion design. Because there's no difficulty in deciding how to respond to children like that. You encourage them to do whatever it is that makes them happy and fulfilled.

I assume from the context you're using GNC to mean children who think they are the opposite sex or want to be the opposite sex. In other words, children who identify as transgender. This is a completely different issue. Please stop equating gender non-conforming behaviours with the idea that this has anything to do with changing sex.

Which is why more unequivocal guidance from the government is necessary. Then teachers on the horn of a dilemma will no longer be in such a tricky position.

I think you said that gender identity should be taught?

Personally, I'd like to see a total ban. A) it's not a subject that needs teaching. And B) it doesn't make any sense.

It's a nonsense, unevidenced ideology that is incoherent, sexist and dangerous.

it's ludicrous that it gets taught in the first place. It's like pretending that Lord of the Rings is real.

It seems no win, whether a parent goes along with it or refuses to go along with it.

I agree with you there, AdamRyan. We've seen several of our friends battle this one. Cheerleading means you are encouraging your daughter to get a beard, a broken voice, and eventual mastectomy. Objecting, however mildly, also leaves you trying to deal with a daughter with all of that crap going on, and possibly family alienation on top. I don't know how we protect these teens from themselves. And so few of them seem happy.

Prime minister affirms reality