Why is the parkrun decision wrong?

I read that this weekend a new entrant into an age and female category is male and beat both the MALE and the FEMALE record for that category.

Hooray! So now we have the fake story that a 'woman' is now beating 'men' in that age category.... go Parkrun!

How very typical. It's like "the first woman" to do this or that traditionally male thing stories, often you find that they are not a woman at all.

And crime, where violent males (like for eg top parkrunner and attempted murderer Lauren Jeska) are frequently presented to the public as "women".

Here's a brave PCC calling one such recent misrepresentation out:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-68268552.amp

I'm not saying the trans woman is more important that other women just that the positive for her is greater than the negative for others.

You literally are saying this male is more important than women. You're not qualified to decide how important it is for individual or collective women and that this hypothetical male must need it more.

@Helleofabore

This is the truth of the matter.

Some people don't run and some people who do don't care about their time or position. Some of those people can not understand that they do matter to others. You only have to see the uproar now the timings and stats have been taken down that they matter to so many people.

If there are stats available they should be fair.
If the stats don't matter do not send emails to me stating my position within my sex because this is inaccurate information.

"If your entrenched ideological framework is that any male person who says they are a woman for what ever purpose is a woman, then logic dictates that this is an 'inclusive' result."

Just to add, the very same people that celebrate a male holding any female sports record, or winning a place in a race as being 'inclusive', are the very same people that celebrate when a panel that is supposed to be balanced by sex has 75% male panel members, as we have already seen happen. They are the very same people who celebrate male people becoming 'Women's Officers' to then represent women's needs when influencing policies that protect women's safety.

In fact, I believe that some of these posters celebrating male participation in sport are fully supportive of male people in women's prisons. Because that is how much they care about female people.

I mean, even on this thread we have had posters fail to acknowledge that female athletes overexerting their bodies to beat an unbeatable record set by a male athlete is a safety concern. It is like maybe some posters supporting this either lack an understanding of sports and the science of sports, maybe because they don't run at all. Or they have an attitude of 'well, it doesn't matter to me, so why should it matter to any other female runner'.

When a person fully supports Bryson being placed in a female prison, can you ever expect that person to give an intelligently considered answer as to why they feel female sport categories should be open to male people?

Hooray! So now we have the fake story that a 'woman' is now beating 'men' in that age category.... go Parkrun!

It's like the prisons/crime stats thing all over again, where mixed-sex stats purporting to cover only "females" can then be used to argue that sex-based categories aren't even needed ("because there are just as many 'female' sex offenders", "women are just as fast as men", etc).

If your entrenched ideological framework is that any male person who says they are a woman for what ever purpose is a woman, then logic dictates that this is an 'inclusive' result.

That it is devoid of ethics, evidence and critical thinking and purely ideological based on philosophical theory only will not matter. Because your view of the world is that people are who they say they are and that a male who says they are a female should be prioritised above all other female people who can legitimately compete in a particular category.

The fact it's a fun run is unimportant. The records and times have always been published and I know both myself and my children are very keen to use the stats to see where we place within our categories

Well quite. And presumably Parkrun had always provided these stats because they thought this was a valuable feature of the runs too... until suddenly they didn't think it was valuable any more. For reasons apparently totally unconnected to the gender issue .

I wonder whether @NoMoreFalafelsForYou feels that's inclusive to women.

I read that this weekend a new entrant into an age and female category is male and beat both the MALE and the FEMALE record for that category.

Hooray! So now we have the fake story that a 'woman' is now beating 'men' in that age category.... go Parkrun!

@NoMoreFalafelsForYou

I do go to park runs.
So do my daughters.

The safety aspect may not be relevant to park run but the fairness aspect does.

Money has been given to park Run to promote women accessing sport and fitness.

The fact it's a fun run is unimportant. The records and times have always been published and I know both myself and my children are very keen to use the stats to see where we place within our categories. As soon as you allow biological males into my category the stats are skewed. I believe I deserve the same rights as men, to see where I sit within my category. Otherwise why publish them at all?

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I think the current Men's record for Park run is held by a biological male and the current female record is also held by a biological male.

The stats matter, you only have to read the responses from hundreds of men and women who want their times bac, if the stats matter the stats should be accurate and fair.

Oh ok - I do understand it now. Still failing to see how anyone can get annoyed about this. Why does it matter who is ahead of you? Allowing trans women to participate in the category that fits their identity might mean you slip down a few places but so what!

What do you mean 'So what?' What's the point of timing it or letting people know their placing at all if it doesn't matter? I'm sick of this attitude that fairness doesn't matter if you're not a professional athlete. You don't use your identity to run, you use your physical body, which is either male or female. There are sexed categories in sport for a reason. In Parkrun you're not even running in a separate men's or women's race, so a trans person isn't going to have the discomfort of running with the 'wrong' group of people.

And can you now clarify why 'Parkrun' doesn't qualify in your eyes as a sport with a female sports category?

Because ..... running is not a sport? Did I miss something integral about running that it has suddenly became not a sport? And did you miss the history of Parkrun where it releases times split by sex category, even AFTER its announcement apparently from reports, people who ran this weekend got their results - by SEX CATEGORY?

Did I miss something where running was NOT a sport?

Or have you got another reason for not answering the question with honesty and integrity?

Do YOU?

I have been invited several times by my running buddies. But when I discovered they allowed males to run in the female category, I told them I wasn't going to join with them. I believe they have now dropped out too because of it.

Have I ever been to one? yes.

All the men and women run together so not sure what you're meaning by safety? I referred to safety as a general comment about female sports categories and why they are formed. Can you point to Can you clarify please, do you falafels believe that male people should be able to compete in a female sports category when the female sports category has been set up to give female athletes fairness and safety? that specifically refers to Parkrun?

However, there is actually evidence that women who have to push their bodies harder and further than is medically safe to achieve impossible records set by male athletes is 'unsafe'. Or doesn't that qualify because it doesn't fit your 'safety' perspective?

Unless you mean women are automatically unsafe just from being next to men? Excellent. I think this really does qualify as a cognitive distortion and it really is not convincing. I hope that it felt good typing it out though.

Care to answer the questions I asked first now? Or has it passed you by that you have insisted I answer your questions before you asked yours.... I did ask mine at 14.49 whereas yours were asked at 16.38. And insisted I answer yours first at 17.07.

Times are important for accuracy, no? I am sure that you, supposedly as a runner telling me how hypocritical I am because I chose not to join Parkrun, understand how times are important to runners of all skill levels.

So you don't even go to park run.
Was obvious.
Which probably explains why you're being hypocritical over complaining that not all your questions are being immediately answered and then glossing over ignoring ? ones asked to you.
Have you ever even been to one? All the men and women run together so not sure what you're meaning by safety?
Unless you mean women are automatically unsafe just from being next to men?
*As if so we're not going to get anywhere and are just going to have to agree to disagree"

1000%

My situation is similar.

So .... you are not going to answer the questions then?

How surprising... not.

And no. No hypocrisy from me. I have always been clear that a female athlete who takes a performance enhancing drug should not be in a female sports category. Because strangely enough Falafels, they derive a benefit from testosterone ... you know... the hormone that drives the physical advantages that male athletes have over female athletes.

You and a few others seem to be taking this absolutist approach that would mean a female taking testosterone should be included in a female category. It ain't a gotcha, and it just makes you look uninformed. Which doesn't surprise me either.

I am saying no males and no females on performance enhancing drugs. Gosh... seems I align with World Athletics and other sports federations on this. Gosh... and you don't align with World Athletics on this topic? is that what you are trying to say in a round about way?

I think it is rather remarkable that a woman would declare letting a male win to make them feel better is completely wonderful and fair and that the women and girls who are disappointed are just 'slightly' disappointed and so that doesn't matter.

My head exploded with the dissonance in this post. I am glad I was not alone.

It is proof that women and girls are mere fucking therapeutic tools for men's feelings. As a runner, that sentiment can fucking get in the bin. If I ran in Parkrun (I looked to join now my fitness is back up to scratch but this policy deterred me), I would just walk away once I realised a male athlete beat me and Parkrun allowed that.

But... oh.... it is ok. Female athletes of any age can just leave, they don't count at all. How many of us leaving, or in my case not even joining, will it take for Parkrun to realise that including male athletes in the female category is NOT inclusive at all. It drives female athletes to exclude themselves.

Can you clarify please, do you falafelsbelieve that male people should be able to compete in a female sports category when the female sports category has been set up to give female athletes fairness and safety?
We're on about park run. Have you ever even been to one? All the men and women run together so not sure what you're meaning by safety?
Unless you mean women are automatically unsafe just from being next to men?
As if so we're not going to get anywhere and are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Do you really believe this? Why does one persons feelings trump another?
I feel like a school pupil so can I go back to school and join in the classes and take all my GCSES, and if lots of us adults, who already have degrees and masters, do that and push up the pass rate of GCSEs would that be fair, after all if I feel young then despite my biological age giving me an advantage here, it's fair, right?
What about if I feel like I want to be an accountant having done a book keeping course? Would you be okay with that? after all what are exams if not a social construct? Generally speaking the higher your academic attainment the greater social mobility, so perhaps as a society we can all feel like we've got expertise and skills and then offer our services as various professionals? Counselling is unregulated, anyone can set themselves up as a counsellor, so perhaps that's the way forward for all areas of work....what could possibly go wrong?
What about if I wanted to become a member of the royal household? Would that be okay if I buy all the gear, the diamonds, the bags the makeup, now I feel like a royal can I be a royal and have the privileges that affords me?
Or what if I'm fed up of working and want to give up my mortgage and ask the council for a house, because I feel that's the way for me to feel better and less stressed? Or would that be wrong because I'm taking something away from someone who's in a less fortunate position than myself? But my feelings matter right?
Why is okay to impersonate someone sometimes and illegal at others? Actors spend their life impersonating others, so if they carry on the charade after working hours is that okay? Going back to my accountancy analogy, providing I'm not working as an accountant is it okay to say I am one because I feel like I am? Are there anytimes when it's justifiable to claim to be something you are not because of feelings? Is deception ever okay? If I don't feel like going to work would that be okay? Would it be illegal to claim sick pay because I feel like I'm ill, even though there is nothing physically or mentally wrong with me, I'm just sick of working or would I be up before a disciplinary hearing for taking something I'm not entitled to take? Would it be seen as fraudulent gain?
So I ask you, a male with biological male advanage, feels like a female and can enter a female race, and that's okay because it's just for fun? Now supposed there is a £10k prize in the female race and a male who feels like a female enters and wins, is that okay or is that a deception? Because biologically no matter what hormones and surgeries that male person has had, the male physiology will still be an advantage over female physiology.
If someone feels disabled, even though it's a purely functional illness (so very real to them), would it be okay for them to compete in the disability sporting category, despite still having the advantages on an abled body person?
Psychologically speaking most people who feel they are 'in the wrong body' have a psychological illness, so at what point do we continue to collude in their illness? At what point do feelings takeover from reality? How does it feel to be a man or woman or an asthmatic if you don't have asthma? I don't know how it feels to be anyone else, so I can't say I feel like X Y or Z? I do feel old, my joints ache, I have arthritis, my hearing and eyesight are rapidly declining, maybe I'll feel more old in a few years time and wonder why I felt old in my 40s compared to my 60s? But if I feel old now, why can't I claim my pension and retire? have a free bus pass, or take part in the over 60s free swimming session our local leisure centre offers? Or enter the over 70s race our local running club does each year, and claim the winning £100? Or do you think I might be called out for such behaviour, after all by your argument why should my feelings and biological advantage trump someone in their 70s? It would give me a real boost to win that race, as I've no chance in winning the 50s and under category.
Supposing there are two competitions one for neurotypical and one for neurodivergent. Now supposing being NT gives you the edge in the ND competition and vice versa.
If a NT person feels ND would it be okay for them to enter the ND category?
Supposing a NT person could take a tablet that makes them ND would it now be okay to enter the category? Or do you think having lived most of their life as NT might just give them the edge?
As a ND person in a NT world I'd love nothing more to have a normal functioning brain, I would have done much better at school, I'd have had much better job prospects, I'd be much more productive at home, but I also wouldn't be me. I can no more change my biological, neurological or psychological make up, as much as I'd like too, than a leopard can change its spots. There is a reason why, in general terms, most self help books are only helpful in the short term...
It's fine to listen to your feelings and emotions and by all means find ways of making life happier, if that's wearing frocks or smocks then go for it, but we shouldn't allow feelings to disadvantage or cause harm to others, that way madness lies, I want to be treated by a qualified doctor not someone feeling like a doctor!

I said: Except female athletes on testosterone should not be included in the female category either
So, you are rather incorrect in saying 'nobody' ever seems to mention that

Apologies, missed where you said that.
Bit hypocritical then, no?
I mean if they're women after all like you say then surely they should be in the women's category.
Women in the women's category, men in the mens.
That's your usual stance.

Jesus bloody Christ, I just don’t know where to start with this, so I’m going to walk the dog and rant to myself. Are you trans biggerboat?

And yet, in the post asking:

Can you clarify please, do you falafels believe that male people should be able to compete in a female sports category when the female sports category has been set up to give female athletes fairness and safety?

Or do you believe that a male athlete taking testosterone suppression drugs reverse all the advantages that puberty has given them?

I said: Except female athletes on testosterone should not be included in the female category either.

So, you are rather incorrect in saying 'nobody' ever seems to mention that.

Just because regulations say a person 'can' do something, if they understand that it is cheating, should they still do it? Releasing times make this 'a competition' despite some very weak attempts to dismiss this by Parkrun. Not releasing standings at all and not recording any records would be a start to proving this is 'not a competition'. Otherwise, it is a falsity.

And please answer the questions asked above. I have bolded them so you don't miss them.

Yes. Men taking women's records are cheating. It's quite intentional cheating. It feels great for the man involved, and it fucks over every woman who ran.

Trans women aren't cheating though as they have every right to run in the women's category at park run.
Are you morally bankrupt? Or do you genuinely believe men have no sporting advantage over women? Presumably a thirty year old running in the 70-79 category is not cheating either? If categories are meaningless, why have them?

I'll repeat this question as it hasn't been answered:
If it's a non competitive fun run why is finishing position, including age and sex grading, recorded and given to participants?

Where do you stand on trans men if they had to run in the female category?
If they were taking testosterone then yes it would be unfair, which is why there should be a women and open category as Scribbling says.

That's another reason why Women and Open makes sense, I suppose, Falafel.