GC Ultra / GC Lite?

There's an interesting thread on here about male sexuality with an illuminating post about "hiccups"
It's changed my cynicism about AGP anyway

It was a clever way to make schools even more affirming.

....Whilst giving an appearance of being on the side of the feminists and parents.

In reality, when you read it, it's really pro transition for children.

It seems that we are now being sold a sanitized version of AGP. This was the entire point of the book.

Exactly frood

There are any number of reasons that people may think it's best overall to observe preferred pronouns. They may not see the fetish aspect in the same way, for one thing - Blanchard for example thought that AGP caused a kind of real dysphoria, at least sometimes, and from that POV using female trappings in public isn't necessarily directly sexual. So anyone who thought that way would not have the same concerns about fetishistic behaviour in public. Plus - not all transwomen are AGP types, and it's not necessarily always possible, or desirable, to ask.

But it can also be a matter of being socially pragmatic, ie compromising with dominant social norms in certain settings - lots of people do this at work - or having limits on where and to what degree they are willing to question people's motives. These can even be compatible with a view that the use of preferred pronouns should become non-normative.

People can see these things somewhat differently, be coming from different sets of experiences, be in different kinds of settings or environments, or weight the importance of some elements more than others. All of which can lead to different decisions about how they will respond in social situations, or work situations, on message boards or philosophical or political situations, or with different specific individuals.

Responding to, reasonable people may disagree with "this is why my view is the only correct one and you are a fool" misses the point.

Maybe I should read it; re reading his article from 2019 on 'supporting trans kids in schools' in the TES was illuminating from the pov that he was very clever at throwing enough "easter eggs" for women trying to challenge the shit show, eg transgender trend and single sex changing at school, whilst still thoroughly undermining safeguarding via everything else he advised.

It was a clever way to make schools even more affirming.

I often say this, but it is well worth reading Lundy Bancroft's book 'Why does he do that', a man who who spent years as a therapist working with male abusers, many referred to him through the prison system.

One of the things he discusses in the book about working with and treating a man, is the importance of him blowing holes in their cover story and their attempts to get others to play along with and sympathise with it, as until this happens, the man is very unlikely to change their behaviours. In his experience they are often extremely good at this. They know all the armchair psychology, they are deeply interested in themselves and their motivations and how they like others to perceive and frame it.

It's a useful read that helps see the other side and why a man with a rather doubtful history towards women and the treatment of them may not be an entirely reliable witness, and may be extremely talented at telling a story that enables and gains enabling.

Both sides of the story are helpful to have in mind to get a picture of where the truth lies.

Just to be clear.

Debbie Hayton is a self-confessed AGP.

It's a paraphilia

"A paraphilia is an experience of recurring or intense sexual arousal to atypical objects, situations, fantasies, behaviors, or individuals.[3][4] It has also been defined as a sexual interest in anything other than a consenting human partner.[5][6] Paraphilias are contrasted with normophilic ("normal") sexual interests,[7][8] though the definition of what makes a sexual interest normal or atypical remains controversial."

Still, I guess it's all of a piece with changing the meaning of words.

When is a paraphilia not a paraphilia? When it's belongs to Debbie Hayton.

I am not an expert but it seems that OCD and AGP are related for a small amount of people and the use of the word fetish is somewhat clumsy for those who have gender dysphoria.

Interesting comparison. Any one with experience of OCD knows you do not accommodate it. If we are to consider AGP similar to OCD rather than a paraphilia then we must not call these men ‘she’ as that would just make their obsession worse.

I suspect that the men who do get off on being in women's toilets and the like are not AGP they are abusive scary predators. Which is part of his point in his book.

Lol. He is actually responsible for writing the policy which got him access to women's toilets.

So Hayton's autogynephilia is different to that of other men?

Even though it was fed with sissy porn and was so overwhelming that he was prepared to leave his wife and children to accommodate it?

@WarriorN hi there yes I did mean Stephanie.

He did not say he as a child was AGP, he said he spent quite a lot of his time wishing he could wake up and be a girl. He described how female clothing was more appealing to him. It was not sexual.

I am not an expert but it seems that OCD and AGP are related for a small amount of people and the use of the word fetish is somewhat clumsy for those who have gender dysphoria.

i really cannot stand gender ideology, and i cannot stand trans activism, its horrible particularly because it is now impossible to ascertain wether a male person in female attire is dangerous or a pervert

Or a transexual minding their own business going about their daily life not bothering anyone.

That is part of his point in the book.

Interestingly he, in describing his journey from believing he was a real woman. To transitioning, to his back to reality, state of mind “i am a man with AGP”, i was in fact the other woman in our marriage.

He Neatly demonstrate how dangerous the internet TRA’s were to him and ergo ultimately much more so for children.

His writing is elegant in that respect.

This^

Of course those disagreeing can have a point, but you can say that to both of the people disagreeing - by it's very nature it's not a one way statement.

I very much agree re Stock, and that idea that a person disagreeing on some issue - which the speaker is oh so sure they are correct on - means that person is naive etc, reminds me a lot of the way many GC women are upset when friends, who have known them for years, assume they must have become bigots suddenly.

So, just to clarify.

Being treated as a woman by others has no bearing at all to someone’s arousal as a person with AG0? it is all just internal perception. And nothing to do with dressing up?

And dressing up as a woman every day is not a self fulfilling arousal mechanism?

And Hayton’s students are free to call Hayton ‘sir’ instead of ‘Miss’.

And Hayton will never use female single sex spaces again, even if there is no gender neutral option?

Plus, Hayton has apologised to the women on MN for telling us all that breast size indicates where women sit in the hierarchy of powrerful women in society?

Good to know.

I've not read it but have read Hatpin/ Loriel's account

x.com/hatpinwoman/status/1755650643446939933?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

I dont think Debbie caused this twitter storm, he does not ask the use of compelled pronouns

There are several concurrent threads about several related issues. From your summary, it's not clear to me that you're aware of the different

• number of events and follow-ups
• dramatis personae for each event
• threads and emphasis.

Apologies if I've misconstrued the extent of your awareness of the various events etc.

Do you mean Stephanie has written a chapter?

The biggest issue is that, I believe, he's claiming to have been agp since childhood.

Ergo children are agp.

This is extremely concerning. Especially given he's a teacher.

That not willingly pandering to a man's sexual fetish is disrespectful?

Much worse, it's "cry traitor" according to the article from yesterday I mean, what the actual fuck??

Cry

Traitor

How dare she.

I have read Debbie Hayton’s book, finished it yesterday.

I do wish people here would stop targeting him as some kind of imposter pervert who abuses his wife and children.

It is simply not true.

He has a chapter on AGP and himself (by the way he is not bothered if you call him he)

AGP is described as a love of oneself as a female, it is not about parading around in a dress with a hard on or sexually excited state, at least not for Hayton.

I suspect that the men who do get off on being in women's toilets and the like are not AGP they are abusive scary predators. Which is part of his point in his book.

But not enough is understood about transsexualism.

They have always existed in most cultures, we cannot wish them away.

The final chapter of this book is written by Debbie and puts paid to the concept she is an abused woman.

I dont think Debbie caused this twitter storm, he does not ask the use of compelled pronouns.

No, it's a mark of 'respect'.

Which means not doing it is disrespect.

How did we get here?

That not willingly pandering to a man's sexual fetish is disrespectful?

It’s so bizarre that JT doesn’t think she’s having her speech compelled. Trans activism has compelled society to use wrong sex pronouns otherwise you’re a nasty bigoty transphobe who isn’t being respectful. She didn’t just come up with the idea of calling DH “she” of her own free will did she?

How can you say that DH respects women and look at his wife in the eye? DH freely admits to harming his wife and kids at the same time!!!

Janice needs her head read!

I think it is more about a lunatic and abusive fringe who purport to be [Y]

I've used [Y] here because it takes tiny numbers of people (or bots, depending on the platform) to disrupt conversations and cast a certain perspective over an entire area of public interest that nobody even wants to approach.

I'm reminded of the knitting groups that imploded over [X]. That went from being places of support and skill sharing for enthusiasts to sources of division. I've seen moderators resign from groups about InstaPots because small numbers of posters who were convinced of their moral compass mired everyone in disputes about every single ingredient, shop, appropriation of a culture in a recipe, competing views on healthy diets.

It's sad but true that one community disruptor can destroy a group of thousands that had previously been a great comfort and source of daily support.

I have been watching this post and the Stella one where DH is commented on quite a bit in mostly derogatory terms.

Doyle has received some pretty horrific homophobia posts per his unheard article, and DH has had his school lobbied again about him being a danger to children.

I am not on twitter but i have a feeling that, they are not referring to folk here who don't want to use pronouns ever (fine by me). I think it is more about a lunatic and abusive fringe who purport to be GC.

I think i saw a post earlier querying if we, the GC movement are being infiltrated by trans activists.

I suspect that trans activists are in fact behind all of this, posing as GC women intent on bringing us into disrepute, this is based on some of the quotes from parties involved, sound so much like TRA’s style and language.

So maybe someone here on twitter should pose that question.

I cannot imagine for one minute that all the folk i have come to know here would behave in such a way.

The prominent accounts of several gay men have also been caught up in said stromash and categorised as ultras, and I seriously doubt they hate all men.