Feeling really low after being honest

@Minglingpringle

Welcome to the thread and indeed the Feminism:Sex & Gender board. You are me about 5 years ago!

Keep reading and asking questions. And most importantly, listening and contemplating the responses. It’s a fascinating topic and affects so many areas of life.

There is a thread titled something like "this never happens" which has a running collection of all the things we are told just don't happen because: poor, vulnerable, misunderstood transwomen!

When actually, they are showing the worst behaviour of the male sex.

Also, really annoyingly, my updated spell check will no accept transwomen and keeps wanting to change it to trans women

Not happy about this, transwomen are a subset of men, not women.

@Minglingpringle

I think you have a lot to learn. The vast majority of transwomen are hetrosexual males who have no surgery and take no drugs. It is a paraphillia where they get a sexual thrill seeing themselves as women. So I would take issue with your assertion that they do it to alleviate unhappiness. That might apply to the tiny minority of old school homosexual transsexuals but for the hetrosexual transwomen it is in all probability a kink.

I am intrigued that this view of poor harmless individuals still persists despite the absolute mountain of evidence that things are very different now.

1) People who want to transition gender are doing it because they are unhappy in themselves

Why should the feelings of unhappy males be more important than women's feelings, our privacy, dignity and safety?

I have strayed into this thread and am finding it fascinating how unanimous the support for OP is.

I find it fascinating how you clearly know males and females aren't the same yet take it as read that some males should be treated as women. On what basis?

otherwise it would soon reach the point where cis women wouldn’t bother competing because there would be no point,

There's no such thing as "cis". It's meaningless in group jargon that only makes sense when you adopt gender identity ideology as a belief.

Interesting that although "not understanding" gender critical feminism because you apparently haven't come across it before you know this jargon that 99% of people don't use.

@Minglingpringle it's on the Feminism: Sex & gender discussions board, otherwise known as the naughty step!

I have strayed into this thread and am finding it fascinating how unanimous the support for OP is. Was this posted in a special section of mumsnet or is it a genuine cross-section of mumsnetters’ views?

I am still trying to work out what I think about the whole trans thing. However, I do have some conclusions already:

1. People who want to transition gender are doing it because they are unhappy in themselves, not because they are seeking to regain the power that men have lost. That would be a ridiculous way to regain power, even if men actually have lost it. Most men wouldn’t be seen dead posing as a woman. You would need to be genuinely drawn to femininity (whatever that is) to live that way.

2. I like the out-of-the-box thinking which says we don’t have to stick to what category other people tell us we have to be in. We should all be free and not have to conform. (I don’t want to be expected to be ladylike or chaste just because I’m female).

3. On the other hand, it seems a backwards step to ascribe specific characteristics to one gender (ladylike, dresses, lipstick) which, if you’re the other gender, you can only embrace by switching. There should be space in both genders for anything and everything and nobody should bat an eyelid.

4)One person’s freedom should not restrict another person’s freedom. Women should definitely have safe spaces if they want them, although I’m not convinced that the vulnerable people transitioning are usually much of a threat. In prisons, perhaps, yes, but that’s because of the type of people who go to prison. It just seems really unlikely. However, people in this thread are quoting examples of where this has happened so it seems there’s more for me to find out about here.

5. I was very surprised when I learnt that feminists were not supportive of trans people being accepted on their own terms. It seems to me we have been fighting for equal freedoms for so long that, when we see someone else doing the same thing, we should empathise and be supportive, rather than pull the drawbridge up after us. I take the view that if people SAY something is making them unhappy, our first instinct should be to believe them, even if we’ve experienced nothing like it ourselves.

6. it is difficult to strike the balance between being kind and polite and not rudely undermining somebody who strongly feels the need to identify against their sex and, at the same time, having freedom of speech and not being obliged to deny realities.

7. I think the whole area is quite big. I reached a conclusion about sport - that, yes, trans involvement in women’s sport should be restricted by using very specific rules (otherwise it would soon reach the point where cis women wouldn’t bother competing because there would be no point, as I can imagine a situation where trans women, with no malicious intent, were drawn to sport because they would see it as an area where they could excel). I think we need to address each individual point (eg changing rooms) on its merits in the same way, rather than simply being “for” or “against” transitioning. It’s all quite new and we are finding our way.

This is just what I was thinking.

People have different viewpoints on social issues, religion, politics. Some are just a different take, some are stupid, but people have a right to them.

What the heck are workplaces doing having these courses then? Where does an employer get off telling people what to think? They have no moral authority, nor are they better qualified to pontificate about these things than their employees.

I'd go quite far with this, actually, I don't think they should be telling people about race or sexism or less controversial things either. They can tell people how they are meant to behave in the workplace, or to clients and service users. And what the goal of the policies are. But they should not be telling people what to think, it's not the role of a workplace.

My apologies if I misinterpreted what you were saying.

I think you have probably misunderstood what I have said. I have no idea about your religious beliefs and I didn't say I don't feel male or female. I am female. I'll leave it there so as not to derail.

How incredible that we are blessed with Dr Hilary Cass's friend and protégé on this very thread!

Am sure you will look back on this moment with pride, Op.
Thank you and well done.

I just wanted to chime in and say thank you too.

I feel too tired and like the battle is already lost with all the gender identity BS that is being ‘normalised’. I feel scared for my kids and already see their confusion which sadly will become their norm.

Thank you @Notfeelingitwasworthit for being brave. I have several family members who need are in need of people like you. I have girls in my family who are severely traumatised and cannot even queue for toilets together with men, never mind using cubicles next to men. I also have a girl in my family who has seizures and for whom full length cubicle doors are a health risk, so this often suggested solution is none. Plus there ARE statistics that 90% of all sex attacks take place in mixed sex changing rooms. I assume the presenter forget to mention that... https://fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

Thanks @WarriorN I will read with interest. There is now so much misinformation floating around thanks to SW and their ilk.

Indeed but that is the point really. In this country we had won the right to say believe what you want but I don’t have to go along with it. Until now.

@jm9138 Interesting. So should I join the Muslim working group and the Christian working group as well just to make sure I can head off their beliefs being foisted on us as true? I am sure I would be welcome to go and say ‘I think what you believe is harmful’ but at the same time I guess these groups are not trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us through laws. It would also seem to be a little uncouth to join such a group.

In this country, in this era, religious belief is not enforced on others by law. But you only need to look at Iran or Afghanistan to see what can happen. Or, historically, the crusades or the Spanish Inquisition. Of course, it is debatable how much of the laws and oppression in those instances is due strictly to religious belief, and how much of it uses religion as an excuse.

Thank you OP. For doing the difficult thing and paving a way for others to speak up. x

Well done OP. I can't believe the trainer was allowed to just state blatant lies as true.

Even outside of this particular issue, that's not just unprofessional isn't it fraudulent?

Is it ok to just lie in a work setting now? Shall I just tell my boss I've done all my work whilst not doing it?

I find a good tactic here is to present things as questions.

"Do you think the general climate around these issues could mean women who aren't comfortable don't feel able to speak up?"

"Has there been any actual research on how women feel or are we all jumping to conclusions from our own beliefs?"

I've managed to get a couple of things done at work through a softly-softly approach. We shouldn't have to but if it means the end result is achieved then I'm OK with it.

Interesting. So should I join the Muslim working group and the Christian working group as well just to make sure I can head off their beliefs being foisted on us as true? I am sure I would be welcome to go and say ‘I think what you believe is harmful’ but at the same time I guess these groups are not trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us through laws. It would also seem to be a little uncouth to join such a group.

I don’t mean to be hurtful but you telling me you don’t feel male or female is utterly meaningless. I can get the ‘I don’t feel I fit into a stereotype’ but most of us don’t. If you believe that you are some as yet undefined ‘gender’ and that gender is different to sex then good for you. Just dont force me in any way to buy into what I think is a harmful delusion. Gone are the days when people were told to be happy in their own skin it seems.

Well done OP. The first time I spoke up at work I couldn't stop shaking. But over time more and more people have come to me and said they agree with me. There will have been people who agreed with you and were secretly grateful, and others for whom you've planted a seed. The true believers you won't be able to get through to, and there's no point in trying, but you will have reached many others with your bravery. Thank you for speaking up for vulnerable women and girls.

And this is what was coming to my mind. The use of propaganda to target the Jews uses the exact same basis & techniques as the trans lobby.

I just refuse to deal with any organisation which uses bullying, death threats & violence to further their cause- don’t care what the actual issue is.