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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feeling really low after being honest

259 replies

Notfeelingitwasworthit · 09/02/2024 23:07

Training today. Gender identity. I was dreading it. Just keep your head down, I thought, don't say anything.
Then the subject of safe spaces came up and the presenter (they/them) said well it's actually not a problem at all, there are no statistics which show that sexual offences occur on hospital wards or in domestic abuse shelters and the other women are also really cool with it so it's not a problem at all!
I just said that this wasn't really accurate, we know women don't report sexual assaults or inappropriate behaviour, especially not if they think they're going to be labelled as transphobic, and women are constantly told to put up and shut up, so that labelled with the fear of being labelled a bigot OF COURSE won't mean they answer truthfully.
Obviously I was set upon. I tried to stand my ground but people kept going. Not just to my face but with snide comments throughout the rest of the day. I would join a room, everyone would stop talking. Even my closest contacts said 'well maybe you just shouldn't say it' and 'they do have a point'.

It just feels so lonely. It feels like you have a choice between being true to what you believe and having friends. Two of my closet friends would disown me if they knew.
Do I have to lie forever?

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Onionbelt · 16/02/2024 07:52

@Minglingpringle
Welcome to the thread. I came across this section of Mums Net maybe a week ago and I have learned so much. I've also done a lot of my own research and reading in this time and am now consumed by this subject. I knew so little and although I knew I supported JKRs view, I couldn't have articulated it. This thread and others like it, if you allow it, will open your eyes in a big way. The conversation is articulate and considered and based on facts. This is a serious issue, and the contributors here have taken the time to understand and explain the GC position with care and passion. Personally I'm so grateful, and I hope you get a much out of it as I (and my husband by proxy) as I have. Welcome aboard.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 16/02/2024 00:26

The idea that a woman was anyone who says they are one was not mainstream in 2014.

ButterflyHatched · 15/02/2024 17:29

Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/02/2024 22:44

I'd really appreciate your answer to the question I posed, @Minglingpringle

I find it fascinating how you clearly know males and females aren't the same yet take it as read that some males should be treated as women. On what basis?

What gave you the impression that an ideology which has been mainstream for about 5 minutes is something most people adhere to, to the point of you thinking we are in some way weird or unusual for objecting to it?

2014 was a decade ago.

Cattenberg · 14/02/2024 21:15

Predictably, our self-appointed monitors are posting screenshots of the OP on Twitter. I haven’t seen a single link to the thread yet, possibly because it might complicate their narrative somewhat.

negeme · 14/02/2024 10:23

porridgecake · 14/02/2024 09:00

@Minglingpringle
I agree that you have bitten off more than you can chew and that is not a good feeling. I disagree that it is because the majority of posters disagree with you or that you don't have time to do it justice.
IMO, you have very little understanding or knowledge of the subject and the majority of women responding to your arguments and assertions have been very much on top of this for years.
I can only suggest that you take some time to look at a couple of websites. Sex Matters, Safe Schools Alliance for example. Read Helen Joyce's book "Trans". Or watch some of her interviews on You Tube. All very accessible.

Yes. And if you're still reading (though perhaps not posting), @Minglingpringle, you might consider this: coming across so many who disagree with you could suggest to you the possibility you are mistaken.

Some - many children - think all opinions stand on equal footing, and on that basis are loath to change their minds. That's silly - childish - albeit usually the thought is based (fallaciously) on the correct (and laudable) principle that everyone is entitled to her or his own opinion.

As for 'cis': in the way you used it @Minglingpringle, and the way you explained it, 'ciswomen' only makes sense if transwomen are women. But they're not. So it doesn't. (Same goes for 'cis women' and trans women.)

Think about it. Do you see?

porridgecake · 14/02/2024 09:20

Hannah Barnes' book " Time to Think" lays out the whole story of the Tavistock Clinic if you want to get up to speed on that.

porridgecake · 14/02/2024 09:00

@Minglingpringle
I agree that you have bitten off more than you can chew and that is not a good feeling. I disagree that it is because the majority of posters disagree with you or that you don't have time to do it justice.
IMO, you have very little understanding or knowledge of the subject and the majority of women responding to your arguments and assertions have been very much on top of this for years.
I can only suggest that you take some time to look at a couple of websites. Sex Matters, Safe Schools Alliance for example. Read Helen Joyce's book "Trans". Or watch some of her interviews on You Tube. All very accessible.

HagoftheNorth · 14/02/2024 08:36

Would be interesting to know if The Garrick admits transmen

DrBlackbird · 14/02/2024 07:19

Minglingpringle · 13/02/2024 17:14

I agree with you on a lot of that. I think young people taking irreversible treatments is always a potential problem and should be considered discretely.

I don’t know about the motivations at the Tavistock - I imagine well-meaning but flawed is the answer, but I was not privy.

I’m also interested to know if everyone on this thread is as anti female-to-male transitioning as they are male-to-female, or if it’s the threat of male violence and the infringement on women’s rights that are the main concern.

However, I’m not actually asking that question. I’m going to bow out now as I think I have bitten off more than I can chew sparking a debate with a group of people who unanimously disagree with me and I unfortunately don’t have time to do it justice.

Here’s an example of why we’re always focused on male to female transitioning. If this club was female only and refused to admit trans women, it’s management would be subjected to violent threats. Men just cannot stand being told ‘no’ whereas women put up with it / are conditioned to it all the time.

Would love to know if any TM were members but I doubt it.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/13/the-garrick-expels-colin-brough-tensions-over-men-only-stance

The Garrick expels member amid tensions over club’s men-only stance

Colin Brough had sent a series of angry emails to fellow members of London gentlemen’s club

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/13/the-garrick-expels-colin-brough-tensions-over-men-only-stance

ILikeDungs · 13/02/2024 22:12

Red when I said not all transwomen are lesbians that was a regrettable shortcut and should have said "not all transwomen also call themselves lesbians". Some are same sex attracted.

Or more precise but tiresome "not all people born men who identify as transwomen also call themselves lesbians". But a fair number do. Some that I could name except I did that in the deleted post and that didn't go well.

I agree that only females can be lesbians.

Grammarnut · 13/02/2024 21:43

ButterflyHatched · 10/02/2024 02:11

You told them what you really think and they told you how appropriate they consider those views to be.

What were you expecting? A pat on the back? A rousing applause?

GC views are a legally protected belief. Aside from that, what the OP said was true, there have been sexual assaults in mixed-changing facilities.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2024 20:45

ILikeDungs · 13/02/2024 19:32

Deleted! Too true was it? The people I mentioned are self confessed AGPs FFS! None of it a lie and no cruelty intended.

I think I was deleted for advising Ming to follow the evidence in respect of the group of heterosexual men who say they are trans. NATWAL (not all transwomen are lesbians) but many are. I am arguing that looking at it in a straightforward way, it simply makes them heterosexual men who like swishy clothes. That was my DH's cousin in the 90's, he would now call himself Trans I guess (lost touch, don't know).

If this is too true as well I can only apologize and repeat: none of it a lie and no cruelty intended.

You can be a male and same sex attracted to a female. That makes you heterosexual.

It is regarded as homophobic to apply gender identity to homosexuality.

Only females can be lesbians.

ILikeDungs · 13/02/2024 20:00

I also thanked Ming for staying with the conversation for as long as she did. Don't want to lose that, too, with the deletion.

ILikeDungs · 13/02/2024 19:32

Deleted! Too true was it? The people I mentioned are self confessed AGPs FFS! None of it a lie and no cruelty intended.

I think I was deleted for advising Ming to follow the evidence in respect of the group of heterosexual men who say they are trans. NATWAL (not all transwomen are lesbians) but many are. I am arguing that looking at it in a straightforward way, it simply makes them heterosexual men who like swishy clothes. That was my DH's cousin in the 90's, he would now call himself Trans I guess (lost touch, don't know).

If this is too true as well I can only apologize and repeat: none of it a lie and no cruelty intended.

ILikeDungs · 13/02/2024 17:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2024 17:46

No one ever has "time", do they? I'm sure they'd be breaking out some groundbreaking insights, and we'd finally learn why we should see a group of males as women. If only they had the time.

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2024 17:43

I’m also interested to know if everyone on this thread is as anti female-to-male transitioning as they are male-to-female, or if it’s the threat of male violence and the infringement on women’s rights that are the main concern.

It's not about being 'anti', though.

I don't care what consenting adults do with their lives and bodies, so long as they're not hurting anyone else.

Yes, the male violence and infringements on womens rights are the main concern, but I am also concerned about children and young people being given unevidenced, unscientific medical treatment that risks causing more harm than good. And being taught that one can change sex, etc.

RainWithSunnySpells · 13/02/2024 17:40

If you want to learn more about the Tavistock and GIDS, then Hannah Barnes' book 'Time to think' would be a good place to start.

Minglingpringle · 13/02/2024 17:14

viques · 13/02/2024 01:06

@Minglingpringle

Ah yes, motivations.

How do you respond to the growing evidence that huge numbers of the young people who want to transition are also young people with autism, depression , eating disorders, confusion and anxiety about their sexuality and other conditions -including the immature brain development of adolescents - which means that their thinking and logic processes are largely fucked up?

Do you think telling these young confused people that taking powerful, life changing, and irreversible chemical treatments, and having radical surgery on healthy body parts is a good way to help them to feel more at ease with themselves ,their sexuality and their post pubertal bodies ?

Or do you think that it might be more helpful to give them the help they need with their autism, eating disorders and depression and help them to overcome the anxiety they feel about themselves, their sexuality, their bodies, and their place in an uncertain world without offering them unhelpful solutions that do not address their primary needs and will, moreover, lead to a lifetime of taking medication with the likelihood of serious consequences like infertility ,heart issues and osteoporosis ?

And talking about motivation, what do you think was (and is) the motivation behind the medical teams at places like the Tavistock, and other clinics, who knew/know about the mental state of their young clients but chose/choose to ignore it, not offer appropriate treatment programmes and , in the case of the Tavistock ,did not think it worthwhile following up on the mental health of their clients to see if the taking of puberty blockers, doses of artificial hormones and encouraging surgery actually sorted out the autism, anxiety, depression and eating disorders their clients presented with?

I agree with you on a lot of that. I think young people taking irreversible treatments is always a potential problem and should be considered discretely.

I don’t know about the motivations at the Tavistock - I imagine well-meaning but flawed is the answer, but I was not privy.

I’m also interested to know if everyone on this thread is as anti female-to-male transitioning as they are male-to-female, or if it’s the threat of male violence and the infringement on women’s rights that are the main concern.

However, I’m not actually asking that question. I’m going to bow out now as I think I have bitten off more than I can chew sparking a debate with a group of people who unanimously disagree with me and I unfortunately don’t have time to do it justice.

ILikeDungs · 13/02/2024 13:26

OP: I read somewhere else today

"A lot of women have convinced themselves they're sad when they're actually furious"

Don't feel low, feel angry. In a sane world you would not have been lied to, then bullied and ostracised when you pointed out the lie. At your place of work.

FrancescaContini · 13/02/2024 11:52

EasternStandard · 13/02/2024 10:39

And that’s where the ‘cis’ part should stay

Hear hear

Catiette · 13/02/2024 11:47

Ugh. Kids nowadays. No taste.

Vebrithien · 13/02/2024 11:16

You're welcome!

Have fun with the marshmallows.

I got into a whole debate with my year 10 class over which sweets should be used as my examples. Apparently marshmallows and gummy bears are like, so old fashioned.

I was told to use flying saucers and bonbons, in future 😆

Catiette · 13/02/2024 11:09

@Vebrithien, thanks again. I think I need to reread & make notes now! (While eating marshmallows, & trying not to think of e-coli).

DrBlackbird · 13/02/2024 10:58

Just to add to those commenting to Mingle, I knew I instinctively did not want to be labelled ‘cis’ but lacked the ability to explicitly explain why I felt as I did.

Then I found these threads. It started out with why I felt JK Rowling couldn’t be the vile person TRAs made her out to be and went from there.

Following the reasoning on the harms of using Cis, along with many other points of concern, has helped me to formulate and express my own views on the damage caused by the gender phenomenon.