Did anyone watch Stella O'Malley's critique of GC feminists on YouTube?

Thanks, that's clear. I genuinely had never heard of this trope before.

I'm not upset by it and I have no wish to stop anyone using it. It's good to know what people might mean by it.

Personally, handmaiden and cool girl have a slightly different spin for me. There is something more religious and devout and intolerant about handmaiden. And cool girl seems potentially more knowing, calculating and in some ways demeaning. Neither of those is how I would describe Stella O'Malley having watched a few episodes of the podcast Gender: a wider lens.

The idea that she is a traitor to a cause or to women makes no sense to me. Unless I have missed something, which is totally possible as I'm not on twitter. I think she's been clear in the videos I've seen about why she sometimes uses preferred pronouns rather than sex-based pronouns. The idea of different brains is interesting and whilst I agree that nobody can avoid Stroop effects, it might go some way towards explaining why people care differently about this issue.

I don't mean anything by it, it has the same meaning as handmaiden. A woman that goes along with men's wishes and throws other women under the bus to not upset the menfolk.

If you have another word for it that does not upset you let me know.

👏👏👏

this is an important discussion i think, and i want to say all due respect for the founders of the GC pushback here and long may you all continue with a hard line. I have learnt an awful lot from you all.

what stuck with me was O’Malley was talking about twitter and the splits that occurred there, but that is not in this space.

I am not on twitter nor will i ever be because it is not a space of proper discussion and just encourages tribal thinking.

I thought O’malley’s view that they (Genspect) must focus on protecting children first and foremost, other issues should follow as interesting, and made me think.

I hope this is not a terrible analogy.

The gender ID movement is an attack on women and children on so many fronts. We cannot all be defending them all at once, by everybody. We would all be running around without any effect.

Troops have to be moved to the areas of attack in accordance with troops skills experience and separate interests/passions.

There is no divisions in the GC movement just troops

So having looked at all the different key players in the public domain we have all our bases covered.

Without a command unit. How amazing is that.

So united we stand divided we fall.

I think that's a fair analysis @BreadInCaptivity. In a past life, I worked in TV, it wasn't unusual to see fame go to some people's heads or develop a distorted view of themselves. Social media is probably having a similar, and more immediate, effect without the financial pay off. It must be very discombobulating.

Yes I think "growing pains" is as good an analogy as any other.

At the start (if we can even pin point that) just finding anyone with GC views to connect with was a challenge given so many mechanisms to do so were shut down.

So when "we" found each other it perhaps was natural that sought to focus on common ground.

As the GC perspective has made significant gains in law (thanks again to Maya/Alison/Sonia/Rachel/Jo) then perhaps the confidence that's given has also opened up the cracks as it were. Maybe it's human flaw that when you are "winning" to become overconfident in your position enough to mess it up (political party's are a case study in this) by turning your focus from the issue you have in common to making your mark on the debate by highlighting your individual contribution as unique.

I think it's a mistake to assume that people with a public profile in this debate don't have an ego irrespective of the "side" they are on and in an age of social media that's a big incentive to offer something new/divisive/unique.

Thanks @BreadInCaptivity I wonder if the splitting factions might also be a sign of growing pains? More and more people are aware of the issues now, more data is being produced - and we are all learning as we go.

I absolutely reserve the right to change my mind - and, with reflection, to not change it at all! 😀

I was going to post but this sums up my thoughts with far more eloquence than I could muster.

Personally I think being GC is (and should be) a pretty broad church and listening to someone whose views I partially share, I feel is an opportunity to reflect on my own position.

Sometimes I've changed my views but on other points I've found my original position strengthened.

I think it's important to challenged and not see this a personal. In fact I'd like to see this as a key differentiation between the GC and GI "factions", that we are not "no debate" but open to discussion and accepting different perspectives.

@OneMorePlant if you describe what you mean by "cool girl" that would help me. I actually hadn't heard it as a concept before being on mumsnet. It does sound sexist to me to be honest (as does "headgirl".) I watched the gone girl clip and that made it seem more sexist. It seems like a slur for women whether or not it's a man or woman using it.

Boring, boring, boring.

I'm getting so tired of this debate being 'intellectualised'. It is very simple.
No one, literally no one, including the Trans/Queer community believe people can change sex.

I thought it was really interesting. It's a shame we have hardliners dictating who can and can't be GC these days, and I'm especially sad to see people like Stella - who stuck her neck on this issue years ago - lambasted by anonymous people on forums.

Good comment. I find the cannibalism sickening. I don't agree with preferred pronouns but I don't find if helpful to indulge in vicious attacks on other women who are making a positive contribution.

But no matter how much infighting there is, nothing will stop me saying that it is impossible to change sex

Exactly! Mumsnet serves the same function that consciousness raising groups performed in second wave feminism: giving women space and language to describe their experiences of living in a sexist society. Then they gave women opportunities to form groups and projects for tackling specific issues affecting women and children, Mumsnet users have gone on to campaign and found groups that lobby politically and socially on relevant issues too.

Women talking to each other must contain potential to be disruptive; why else would so many male-dominated societies feel suspicious of it as well as try to prevent it and/or denigrate it.

I did not call her misogynistic names. If you have a better word for it let me know as English is only my fourth language. I could say handmaiden but would be a similar issue for your sensitivities now won't it.

I like Stella. I like her work ethic. I find her warm and generous in person and someone who is trying (and is) making a considerable difference.

Some of the points she makes here have been made on these boards, as OP writes.

Honestly, I think I can live with not agreeing on everything Stella says and still hold her in high regard. And I expect, as a reflective person herself, Stella is evolving, assessing and reflecting on her own stance as the expertise and evidence builds around her. I can't imagine what it's like to also be doing that whilst under scrutiny in the spotlight.

I appreciate KJK too. I also do not agree with everything she says. See also: Andrew Doyle, Kathleen Stock and a host of others.

I do wish we could get back to holding nuance and not treat every person and every topic like the answer to a question on Runaround.

No you are just defending someone who throws women under the bus and argues with people who call out that behaviour.

What is there to refute? Her opinion is that the pronoun issue, and the article "pronouns are rohypnol" it's all irrelevant because her brain can use 'she' for men without issue (which was immediately debunked by herself).

She is confused about why the first criticisms of her were about using Debbie Hayton when she was fighting against the medicalisation of children. The obvious reason is that he is an AGP man who in the past argued against women and single sex spaces and put his last when it came to his own paraphilia. But she thinks that is not a big deal.

Out of interest do you do anything to combat gender ideology other than post on mumsnet? Have you, for example, started an international organisation like Genspect?

I think thats a really unfair comment. Discussing gender ideology and raising awareness in a grass roots way here has been invaluable. We talk about our understanding of gender, how it inpacts women and children and practical ways to navigate it. Its been far more useful to me than monetized conferences.

Dont belittle what had been achieved here.

...and those sandwiches aren't going to make themselves!!

Yes coincidentally I helped found a branch of a larger women's initiative in my country. Though we are not that blessed to be in a country, or right next to a country, with women like JK Rowling, Margaret Berns, Kellie-Jay or Julia Long who paved the way for us like Genspect had when it was founded barely 3 years ago.

What is that you do exactly?

Cool girl is an existent archetype in literature and movies that has existed for quite a while. I did not come up with the name as for example featured in this monologue in Gone Girl:

I can accept perfectly fine that she has a different opinion.

And unlike the TRA i will not threaten her, try to get her fired, stand next to her with a vuvezela when she tries to speak or try to stop any platform that wants her as a guest.

I can also call her out on things I think are cool girl behaviour. And you can react to that and we can disagree. But I'm not going to ignore nonsense and smearing of women.