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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Parkrun to remove course records

188 replies

Ingenieur · 07/02/2024 18:39

In response to criticism of its "gender categorisation policies", Parkrun are now removing a suite of details and records from the site.

https://twitter.com/Cantspekl/status/1755170910787490028

One more thing taken away...

https://twitter.com/Cantspekl/status/1755170910787490028

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18
Needapadlockonmyfridge · 08/02/2024 18:37

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 18:35

Is there any alternative to Parkrun? Their stance previously, and now this, has really annoyed me. I would never be anywhere near leaderboards (unless for slowest time), but it is the principle

If you live or work in London, there is a last Friday of the month 5k in Hyde Park. I've done it a few times.

Otherwise there are various 5k races. I think there's also something in Princes Risborough which happens every Sunday.

Thank you . I will have a look for something local- good to know there might be something.

So disappointed though!

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 18:37

I imagine if it started now they wouldn't publish results at all, you'd just be sent your time directly and be able to access your own results and no one else's. I can forsee it heading that way. The search for athlete function has been removed citing data protection. You can still ctrl F look for names in the results list if you know the event someone ran at then view their profile. That'll probably change at some point

Well I think the results will stop going to the Power of 10 soon, and then they can block the results on the parkrun website too and you'll only be able to see your own. However, that only applies to the UK - I don't know how it would work overseas.

It will be a shame if they do get rid of the ability to see other peoples' results - it can be quite useful to work out how hard or easy a course is by comparing their times at eg Torbay (flat and fast) and Parke (hilly and cross-country type so slow).

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 18:35

Is there any alternative to Parkrun? Their stance previously, and now this, has really annoyed me. I would never be anywhere near leaderboards (unless for slowest time), but it is the principle

If you live or work in London, there is a last Friday of the month 5k in Hyde Park. I've done it a few times.

Otherwise there are various 5k races. I think there's also something in Princes Risborough which happens every Sunday.

givemushypeasachance · 08/02/2024 18:14

maltravers · 08/02/2024 17:40

If the fastest runners data is so unreliable Mushypeas why collate it? Would you celebrate a 30 year old runner as fastest runner for kids? If not, why not? Why have the criteria if they cannot be applied?

We wouldn't 'celebrate' them we just wouldn't know it was a mistake in the results unless we were told!

As a regular timekeeper and results processor, the reliability of the times are very dependent on how long we're willing to spend wrangling the results and deleting or adding lines in to account for dropped tokens, funnel duckers, mistiming, people having to queue for several minutes to even get over the line (January has been crazy busy at our event).

It's a 'free weekly timed' run that started as a time trial so the point has always been to collect times, and when it was a time trial to list the results each week so people could compare week by week. I imagine if it started now they wouldn't publish results at all, you'd just be sent your time directly and be able to access your own results and no one else's. I can forsee it heading that way. The search for athlete function has been removed citing data protection. You can still ctrl F look for names in the results list if you know the event someone ran at then view their profile. That'll probably change at some point.

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 08/02/2024 18:13

I have started (badly running) with the aim of being able to do Parkrun type things.

Is there any alternative to Parkrun? Their stance previously, and now this, has really annoyed me. I would never be anywhere near leaderboards (unless for slowest time), but it is the principle.

StephanieSuperpowers · 08/02/2024 18:07

The point is, is men can't have women's records, no one can.

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 18:04

MidnightSerenader · 08/02/2024 17:56

And who are they blaming?

Hopefully the cheating men who caused the issue in the first place, and not the women complaining about the cheating.

There's a surprising amount of vitriol being aimed at women in X. "Look what you made them do."

Never ever forget how much men hate women etc. Depressing.

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 17:58

The age category records are still there. If you for example you go into your local results and click on an age group, it is a clickable link

I just looked at this again, and they no longer are :(

MidnightSerenader · 08/02/2024 17:56

Cloudyz7 · 07/02/2024 23:55

My male running buddy tells me that his (mostly male) What's App running club chat has exploded this evening!

And who are they blaming?

Hopefully the cheating men who caused the issue in the first place, and not the women complaining about the cheating.

AdultHumanFemaleParkrunner · 08/02/2024 17:46

museumum · 08/02/2024 17:16

I've got family members who are run directors and I run but am back of pack. It would not be fair to them and their place in their community to put them on the front line of policing people’s sex category. It’s just not possible. Any challenge to a persons self declared sex could easily result in the core volunteer team and their businesses being publicly blackballed in the community.

Parkrun might be a behemoth organisation but on the Saturday morning it’s just volunteers. If the IAAF, IOC, sport England, British athletics etc etc cannot solve the problem of protecting women’s sport then why should parkrun be able to? I do not blame them for choosing this cop out.

I don't think anyone would expect the volunteers to police sex categories. It's that parkrun have set the thing from registration that men can register as women if they want to. If the registration asked for sex at birth, and maybe also recorded if their gender identity matched their biological sex, then everyone knows where they stand and it makes it easier to correct course records etc if necessary. Of course people can cheat at parkrun - Runners World did a stupid article thinking they were super clever only running part of a course - but it's stated at the beginning of the run that people should only go through the finish tunnel when they've run 5km.

Madcats · 08/02/2024 17:45

Reading the Torygraph article the rational for "gender, not sex" seemed to be that some trans weren't ready to be outed as trans, so letting "John" run as "Jane" was "kind". On the contrary, I would have thought it "outing" if the bloke who finished in front of you turned up in the results as "Jane".

There are plenty of workaround solutions to this in kids' competitive sport (surely one of the race directors has a sporty child?).

Take swimming, for example. For various reasons, a parent might wish others didn't know where their child is now living/competing. Those kids still
compete with a swim ID but the results show "name withheld".

Parkrun just enables cheating.

Hobbitfeet32 · 08/02/2024 17:43

I think this could work in favour as now men are being affected people are listening. Funny how it’s a run not a race for women but now the men can’t see their records they don’t seem to like it

maltravers · 08/02/2024 17:40

If the fastest runners data is so unreliable Mushypeas why collate it? Would you celebrate a 30 year old runner as fastest runner for kids? If not, why not? Why have the criteria if they cannot be applied?

Leafpicker2000 · 08/02/2024 17:37

teawamutu · 07/02/2024 21:27

I'm wondering if it might be quite useful. Things tend to happen quicker when men are inconvenienced.

This!

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 17:35

@givemushypeasachance @museumum

I don't think anyone is suggesting this is on the volunteers. It is for Parkrun HQ to make it clear that they are asking people to be honest and that it is sex at birth that they're expecting you to declare when registering and that would be used for age/sex grading. As other PPS have suggested, there should be a way to opt out if declaring that if it makes you uncomfortable but the solution is not to let you self identify into another category. It works perfectly well for ages. There may be people putting in the wrong dob for whatever reason maybe ....

I'm a volunteer at PR and am nearly at 150 credits. I'm increasingly uneasy at the clear point that is being pushed by HQ. They are making it a divisive issue.

Given that other sporting bodies have now stated that they will protect the female category and that athletes can pick female or male/open, I don't think it would be that hard for Parkrun to follow their lead. Instead they are very much picking a side and it's not the side of women.

Tiddlywinkly · 08/02/2024 17:28

I think that by disadvantaging all males for once (as well as females) it will help to highlight the issues females face.

museumum · 08/02/2024 17:16

I've got family members who are run directors and I run but am back of pack. It would not be fair to them and their place in their community to put them on the front line of policing people’s sex category. It’s just not possible. Any challenge to a persons self declared sex could easily result in the core volunteer team and their businesses being publicly blackballed in the community.

Parkrun might be a behemoth organisation but on the Saturday morning it’s just volunteers. If the IAAF, IOC, sport England, British athletics etc etc cannot solve the problem of protecting women’s sport then why should parkrun be able to? I do not blame them for choosing this cop out.

givemushypeasachance · 08/02/2024 16:50

As a regular volunteer and some-time run director at a busy event (regularly 500+ participants) we have no ability, time or inclination to get into policing the results from parkruns. We're a three-lap course and people finish after two laps every week, if we notice we mention it to them but we don't prevent them from crossing the line. If people cut corners, the only person they're cheating is themselves really, they'll have a PB that isn't genuine and is hard to beat doing it properly.

If a fast club runner picks up his 7yo daughter's barcode by mistake one morning and runs 19 minutes with it, unless he notices and emails in later, or someone else notices from the results and thinks huh I don't remember seeing a really fast young child that week, we're not going to know to go in and delete that result. Equally, if someone who on the surface looks male finishes third in 16 minutes and later it comes up that huh that person who finished third, Jay Smith in the results, has set a new female course record, I'm not likely to notice, remember who that was and think I'd better report that to parkrun HQ so they can email the participant and ask who knows what - "just checking, do you identify as female as you ticked that box when you registered?".

We're too busy getting out there hours before the event to check and set up the course, brief all the other volunteers, deal with anything from complaints about dogs or spitting, to calling ambulances for cardiac arrests or handing out plasters for trips and falls, problem solving half our equipment blowing away or everything being rained on, and then packing it all up at the end, processing the results and re-sorting 500 finish tokens back into order, then passing the kit on to the next week's volunteer. I just want to help put on the events that introduced me to running, so regulars and first timers can get outside and run jog or walk their 5k with everyone else.

Kendodd · 08/02/2024 15:29

DuesToTheDirt · 07/02/2024 22:00

I wonder though how they can realistically police entries. They rely on people giving their age and sex, and if someone says they're a 40 year old woman who is going to check and tell them, "No, you're actually a man?" (Or, perhaps, "No, you're actually 29!") Remember too that race officials are volunteers.

I'm not saying that this outcome is desirable, just that I think they would struggle as they rely on people's good faith to enter the right category.

Pretty much sums it up.

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 15:19

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:14

No mention of how many extra barriers there are for women who want run. The number of hours available and places to run are massively reduced due to safety. Running solo opens you up to unwanted comments and sometimes abuse from random men

Totally agree with this.

I saw that The Forestry Commission have organised a series of runs that are in association with something called SheRaces - really interesting because of the word woman and aiming to acknowledge and address what women need to be able to participate

Yesnosorryplease · 08/02/2024 15:17

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:15

I've also never quite understood why people need to use parkrun for a morning stroll, either. Fine to walk with a view to gradually jogging some or all of it. But not a gentle stroll with a stop for your kids to use the swings!

I'd never be tailwalker, it would drive me bananas.

I've been at parkrun where people turn up in wellies to walk with their dog. Hardly needs marshalling, does it?!

Completely different if you're looking to gradually increase fitness and progress to faster walking, to walk/run, to run/walk etc and it's great to see those who progress like this over the weeks. But turning up to walk and chat seems a bit odd.

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:16

Parkrun might not be the olympics but for many women is one of few opportunities they can run safely and celebrate their achievements - how ever fast or slow they might be. But as always it's the men with the ladyfeelz who take priority

It's also a way of women getting into sport. Those young girls could be the elite runners of the future and the older ladies might be able to compete for GB at Masters level. Grass roots sport is just as important as elite sport.

lieselotte · 08/02/2024 15:15

I've also never quite understood why people need to use parkrun for a morning stroll, either. Fine to walk with a view to gradually jogging some or all of it. But not a gentle stroll with a stop for your kids to use the swings!

I'd never be tailwalker, it would drive me bananas.

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