Andrew Doyle

For the sake of communication, I'll make it quite clear that I do not agree that people should be attacked or hounded purely because you disagree. You were replying to me. I have not hounded or attacked Janice Turner. I'm not even on Twitter.

People's issue isn't just about pronoun use. Because other people use preferred pronouns. You've said yourself you've no idea why she did it.

We are talking about a 56-year-old man, teaching 11 to 18-year-olds, who, because of his porn habit, believes that the size of a girl's breasts indicates her popularity. He teaches science.

He implemented a policy where his pupils call him Miss and use she pronouns, because it's arousing. And he wears fake breasts in front of them.

He has gone completely public about this!!

None of this is about purity! Or rule breaking or zealotry, ffs.

This is about total bafflement as to why somebody like Janice Turner, who appeared to grasp the entire issue, doesn't get it. Because it wasn't the ipso guidelines, or anything like that. She said it was out of respect.

Although I'm perfectly willing to believe that she doesn't actually get it.

A lot of women really can't quite bring himself to accept that this might just all be about sex.

But in this case, Debbie Hayton himself has confirmed it.

So even if you think people are zealots, or there's a purity spiral, or there are exceptions, or a wide variety of reasons, even then, you still can't think of a reason why Janice Turner did it.

Because it's really fucking important why she did.

I want to know why clever, influential, brilliant writers like her think we need to respect men's public fetishes.

Can confirm I am Ultra.

I don't see why anyone gets their knickers in a knot over other peo-ple's language choices.

I don't call Hayton a She, because the fact he's male is relevant to whatever I'm saying about it, generally. Janice Turner and Andrew Doylre have made a different choice while doing articles/interviews with Hayton. That's fine - I don't think either has suddenly become confused over Hayton's sex. They are observing a polite fiction.

Who am I to decide for others what language is most appropriate for them t use in every circumstance?

Wer don't have to agree on every minute detail of every issue to work together.

Like "domesticated zombies". Didn't we have "trad wives of Farage" on here once?

They are reclaiming a nasty slur.

The GCs are as zealoty about it as the TRAs.

Yet more name calling?

Purists say language has to be used in the same way at all times by everyone.

No they are the ones saying that their rules must apply and that under specific circumstances men should be called ‘she’. Depending who they are, this could be all men who identify as women or just some men. Anyone who objects is pilloried as a TERF, bigot, extremist or ultra, or zealot

It wasn't a rule failure.

Quite the contrary. The accusation of ‘rule failure ‘ is directed at those who use sex based pronouns. The name calling is directed at those who won’t follow the purity test of calling specific men ‘she ‘.

It wasn't a rule failure.

It was accommodating a fetish. And the topic of whether she realised it or not, was discussed here at length.

Maya Forstater said on her tribunal that she used preferred pronouns at work.

Many women on here say they use them in their office.

It's really disingenuous to make it about something it's not.

It's about accommodating a man who has specifically told you that doing so arouses him. Whilst at the same time, flatly disagreeing with the entire ideology that he is using to get you to do it!!

And then doubled down on Twitter!

It's not about rules, and purity. It's about bizarre behaviour that's difficult to comprehend.

Okay, so you've gone from its a purity spiral to object to she pronouns, to it's not a purity spiral, but it may appear to be a purity spiral if they do it only once, and there are exceptions and lots of reasons to do it, but you're not going to give any examples because in this specific instance that we're talking about, it's to do with accommodating a sexual fetish and that's clearly not something that you would agree to support.

Ending with a strawman that people don't deserve to be attacked and hounded if you disagree with them.

Quite. Purists make up their own rules around language based on belief systems and demand everyone follow them.

Pragmatists use language for shared understanding.

It's my understanding that most women said that gender critical women wouldn't use homophobic slurs. Not that they wouldn't object to him using she pronouns.

if you're gender critical, you would criticise society expectations of gender roles, which would encompass insults to homosexuality.

People might be calling themselves gender critical, who aren't tho, of course.

we get it here all the time.

"I'm as gender critical as they come but...<insert the opposite of being gender critical>"

We have one side in this spat complaining of ‘pronoun police’ ‘screaming people’ ‘authoritarian’ ‘ultra’ ‘extremist’

The other side are arguing why pronouns matter

One side name calling. The other arguing their position. 🤔

Purists are the people who think a rule applies to everyone in all conetxs at all times. The dogmatic.

Not quite. They are people who think THEIR rules applies in all contexts at all times and those rules are based on some theoretical belief.

You are not a purist for insisting sex is real.