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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What would you do? Re school staff member and colleague calling himself 'miss'

161 replies

Icantpeopleanymore · 04/02/2024 20:59

So it's a delicate situation...I work with a man who is lovely, very young, known him as both a student and now a colleague, he's not a teacher but has occasional contact with kids, I barely need to refer to him by 'Mr ...' but would have to in front of students, he's 'transitioning', on hormones, up until now on staff nights out etc he would wear dresses etc but I would just ignore it (he has a following of woke girls who are more than ready to compliment him on his outfits and I've just ignored it until now) he did once make reference to HRT when I was having a hot flush and compared it to his hormones, it was in a social gathering and not the right place so I just ignored it and changed the subject. However, he's now changed his email to Miss.. surname and I just cannot bring myself to do it. To me, it's actually teaching our students to lie and it's also plainly obvious he's a man, albeit a slightly built long haired one who wears trousers and jumpers to work so fairly gender neutral clothing too.

It just leaves a horrible taste in my mouth and it goes against everything I believe but I also don't want to hurt his feelings or be rude, he's a decent human being, but it's just not on at the same time. It'll only come up once or twice a term at most but others I know who also think it's a load of bollocks and deal with him daily are just going along with it, because he's a nice person and a friend, we've all known him years. They just don't want to be rude. I appreciate he's being brave to make this change of name but he's just so misguided...

It makes me so angry he's put us in this position but I cannot call him miss, it's just ridiculous! Plus I can imagine our students going...who?! As he's clearly a bloody man! Oh and is a scientist 🤦

How do you deal with it when it's at work, you want to be kind and not appear rude, but can't just use a first name? (It's a gender neutral first name thank god, just a shortening of a man's name that could be a woman's) but I can't do that in front of students...

OP posts:
Chariothorses · 05/02/2024 13:53

If the pupils call him 'Teacher'and you introduce him as you suggest, so no one lies, no one's speech/belief is coerced, no one can complaint about misgendering/ correct sexing - ie no'one's rights are impacted- that would seem to be a middle ground..

Chariothorses · 05/02/2024 13:46

Safeguarding comes before validating a teacher's fantasy. If staff refer to a male as a female, you are gaslighting children and putting them at increased risk of abuse. It also causes immense distress to children of transitioners (CoTs) in the school, and other survivors of male abuse. Cots wrote about what they need in school here https://childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/02/27/how-to-help-children-of-transitioners/
but they got a lot of abuse for speaking up, so most are silent in school. https://childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/09/25/not-shutting-up/

Bullying of children who recognise reality increases when adults make counterfactual statements.https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/girl-18-driven-out-of-school-for-questioning-transgender-ideology/
The Amy/ Andrew Miller abuse case is another case in point- the little girl got into her abuser's car as she had been taught 'transwomen are women' so are as safe as women- as you are under pressure to do here, so it's a direct safeguarding risk. https://reduxx.info/scotland-transgender-butcher-pleads-guilty-to-abducting-and-sexually-abusing-schoolgirl/

But to be honest Op, I understand why you might lie to the pupils - you have to keep your job to feed your children. Is there any safeguarding/ welfare officer lead you could approach to raise concerns?

SCOTLAND: Transgender Butcher Pleads Guilty to Abducting and Sexually Abusing Schoolgirl - Reduxx

A Scottish butcher charged with the abduction and rape of an 11 year-old girl has pleaded guilty to the grisly crimes at the High Court in Edinburgh today. Andrew Miller, 53, who also uses the female persona Amy George, has admitted to kidnapping the c...

https://reduxx.info/scotland-transgender-butcher-pleads-guilty-to-abducting-and-sexually-abusing-schoolgirl/

dapsnotplimsolls · 05/02/2024 08:34

Is he aware of your views? Is he likely to notice and then complain if you don't use Miss in front of him? If he starts wearing a dress, the kids will soon notice even if they don't see much of him.

Holeinamole · 05/02/2024 07:59

Seems like an area of employment law crying out for clarification … IANAL but I guess this could go either way in court?

I’m also assuming this person doesn’t have a GRC, so is legally a man. I would get written instructions from your superiors, asking them directly what will happen in a range of hypothetical scenarios, but the problem is your superiors will probably consult somebody else who might not understand the conflict of rights and safeguarding issue.

And yes, it sounds as if this person has been pushing boundaries, little by little, and is strategically using bonds of friendship to get what he wants. Personally, I’ve become quite wary of such manipulation, it is a bit of a red flag to me. It’s also just distracting in the work place.

LittleMissViper · 05/02/2024 07:48

Here I'd switch to referring to them by job title and surname. So assuming they're a teaching assistant, then they'd become "TA Jones", or "Assistant Jones". I'd be directing the students to "Form B's Assistant Jones" or similar.

It's clunky, but factual and politely distant. And it's defensible if they or others kick off with accusations of transphobia. You're not being insulting or misgendering, but neither are you being forced to lie against your own lawfully held beliefs.

nothingcomestonothing · 05/02/2024 07:40

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 05/02/2024 02:18

In a work setting, if you don’t respect the persons name and pronouns, and you do it persistently and intentionally you’ll eventually lose your job. It’s as simple as that. The employer would be at risk of discrimination claims if they didn’t address the behaviour. Even if you find it difficult, you’ll need to get over it if you want to stay employed.

No, it is not 'as simple as that'. Stonewall law is not the actual law. This workplace is full of children. Children take precedence. Children should not be lied to, or forced to lie, because it's what an adult wants. The transperson is the one who will 'need to get over it', his wants do not and should not trump children's rights - see the previously quoted KCSIE.

Apollo441 · 05/02/2024 02:40

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 05/02/2024 02:18

In a work setting, if you don’t respect the persons name and pronouns, and you do it persistently and intentionally you’ll eventually lose your job. It’s as simple as that. The employer would be at risk of discrimination claims if they didn’t address the behaviour. Even if you find it difficult, you’ll need to get over it if you want to stay employed.

This is lie. Compelled speech is an abuse of your human rights. If you insist on calling him 'he' then I think you will have problems but if you avoid all pronouns and use their name I can't see how they can touch you. You do not need to use their pronouns.

Lemonlemonlemonapple · 05/02/2024 02:18

In a work setting, if you don’t respect the persons name and pronouns, and you do it persistently and intentionally you’ll eventually lose your job. It’s as simple as that. The employer would be at risk of discrimination claims if they didn’t address the behaviour. Even if you find it difficult, you’ll need to get over it if you want to stay employed.

SammyScrounge · 05/02/2024 01:52

HipTightOnions · 04/02/2024 21:13

Just try very hard to not refer to him by name at all.

He will expect the children to call him "Miss" and will presumably "correct" them if they call him "Sir".

That shouldn't be allowed because he would be using his position as teacher to compel children to accept his ideology. He"s a man and should be addressed as such.

catduckgoose · 05/02/2024 01:04

Nttttt · 04/02/2024 21:45

“I respect that these are your wishes” but proceeds to ignore their wishes to be called miss.

Do any of you people ever think that YOU are the issue considering the rest of your workforce and the children are adhering to the best of their ability? It wouldn’t shock me if you end up sacked for transphobia, but if it realllllllyyyy upsets you that bad then just continue 👍🏼 Get rid of the transphobic teacher so staff and kids can feel safe to come out.

I can understand when people are critical and say they don’t want trans people in their spaces like toilets etc, it’s not my view but it makes the most sense. However not listening to someone when they say they’re trans/ accepting their pronouns is just straight up transphobic.

Sounds like what you're saying is it's "transphobic" to be truthful. And as we all know that being a dishonest liar is wrong, this implies that "transphobia" must be good and honest and wholesome.

Sounds alright to me.

Icantpeopleanymore · 04/02/2024 23:57

I think, oddly, if he were a teacher, that this might happen quicker and be more of an issue. It would force their hand to come up with something. I do think they will ignore it because they will say that it doesn't impact the students directly as they don't have to speak to him or refer to him as miss as much as they would if teaching staff were involved. He doesn't have any contact with parents really. It's really only going to come up for me once or twice a term I guess, if at all.
I've had to agree to disagree with my partner, we work together and he's much more involved with him than I am. He feels the same as me, but they are much closer and he's had to ask him, what do you want to be called, and got the answer miss. He's much happier to do it than I am, he doesn't feel comfortable doing it but also doesn't feel comfortable not doing it, as he likes him, he's a friend and he doesn't want to hurt his feelings.

OP posts:
Propertylover · 04/02/2024 23:44

@nothingcomestonothing I agree safeguarding and other risks also need to be considered. That is why a direct management instruction is needed.

SoupDragonsFriend · 04/02/2024 23:41

Is there any way that the school might consider making the move from using Sir/Miss to using teachers' first names generally, or in classes where the staff themselves were comfortable with it? There are schools where first names are the norm for everyone and it might make it easier.

I've just finished reading the 'Immersed in a fiction' chapter in Kathleen Stock's book 'Material Girls - Why Reality Matters for Feminism' (2021). She wrestles with how to manage the pronoun situation and doesn't get much further than the discussion on this thread but she does make the point that for trans people 'having your preferred pronouns or other sex-incongruent terms uses by others is a courtesy on their part and not a right on yours'.

nothingcomestonothing · 04/02/2024 23:38

Propertylover · 04/02/2024 23:30

@Icantpeopleanymore I really feel for you as in a work situation you are subject to legislation, case law and employer policies.

Using they/them is a pragmatic solution to not using sex based pronouns.

The title Mr or Miss is complex. It is not transphobic to use Mr but in work it may be considered discriminatory (gender reassignment PC) or a breach of policy.

A lot will depend on what is written in your employer’s staff handbook, conduct, dignity at work or bullying & harassment policies as they may require you to use Miss or possibly Mx ( not got a clue how to pronounce it)

I agree with pp talk to ACAS and your TU rep but also check your employers staff hand book and policies. You will then need to talk to your manager or HT and ask for guidance.

GC beliefs are protected but so is gender reassignment. They are equal and in this situation you may find it is a direct management instruction that determines the way forward.

Nope. The children are meant to come first. They are not there to validate adults. This is ultimately not about balancing the rights and beliefs of the adults, the needs of the children should take precedence. It's depressing that that has to be pointed out to OPs employer and colleague.

Propertylover · 04/02/2024 23:30

@Icantpeopleanymore I really feel for you as in a work situation you are subject to legislation, case law and employer policies.

Using they/them is a pragmatic solution to not using sex based pronouns.

The title Mr or Miss is complex. It is not transphobic to use Mr but in work it may be considered discriminatory (gender reassignment PC) or a breach of policy.

A lot will depend on what is written in your employer’s staff handbook, conduct, dignity at work or bullying & harassment policies as they may require you to use Miss or possibly Mx ( not got a clue how to pronounce it)

I agree with pp talk to ACAS and your TU rep but also check your employers staff hand book and policies. You will then need to talk to your manager or HT and ask for guidance.

GC beliefs are protected but so is gender reassignment. They are equal and in this situation you may find it is a direct management instruction that determines the way forward.

pronounsbundlebundle · 04/02/2024 23:30

Is there any other part of school life where staff are expected to breach KCSIE? Aren't they supposed to be trained on NOT doing that each year?

Makes you wonder what other safeguarding breaches are happening.

Icantpeopleanymore · 04/02/2024 23:27

@nothingcomestonothing and @pronounsbundlebundle definitely yes. I think that's what I find the most difficult. It's the using miss in front of the kids, it makes me shudder. He's asking us to lie and it makes me so angry.

OP posts:
nothingcomestonothing · 04/02/2024 23:18

pronounsbundlebundle · 04/02/2024 22:56

It's a safeguarding nightmare and in direct breach of keeping children safe in education where it explicitly states it's emotional abuse for a child to be used purely for the validation of someone else, particularly if it requires them to state something they don't believe to be true or is something that is developmentally inappropriate for them (e.g. from the sounds of it this will be true for at least some of the autistic children).

It's emotional abuse.

And it's a safeguarding red flag to tell children that what an adult wants is more important than telling the truth i.e. they should lie if an adult tells them to.

Edited

Just highlighting this:

direct breach of keeping children safe in education where it explicitly states it's emotional abuse for a child to be used purely for the validation of someone else, particularly if it requires them to state something they don't believe to be true or is something that is developmentally inappropriate for them

The school leadership need to take responsibility for what they are allowing. It's not ok for schools to require children to lie because it's what an adult wants.

Icantpeopleanymore · 04/02/2024 23:11

@eggbot it wouldn't be obvious from looking at someone that they were married though. This is obvious. So not really the same thing.

The kids call all the female teachers miss. Regardless of married status. We don't care. The men are called sir.

OP posts:
newtlover · 04/02/2024 23:01

depending on how and when it comes up, could you say to the students
'Mr Brown now wishes to be known as Miss Brown, please try to remember this'

and if any of then ask why etc

'You will have to ask Miss Brown about that'

pronounsbundlebundle · 04/02/2024 22:56

HipTightOnions · 04/02/2024 21:45

you’ll have to use “miss”

Why, though? Just because he wants you to? What message would that send to the kids?

If any of the students blurt our about him being a man or whatever then leave him to deal with it.

And if he "corrects" and even reprimands them, what then?

It's a safeguarding nightmare and in direct breach of keeping children safe in education where it explicitly states it's emotional abuse for a child to be used purely for the validation of someone else, particularly if it requires them to state something they don't believe to be true or is something that is developmentally inappropriate for them (e.g. from the sounds of it this will be true for at least some of the autistic children).

It's emotional abuse.

And it's a safeguarding red flag to tell children that what an adult wants is more important than telling the truth i.e. they should lie if an adult tells them to.

eggbot · 04/02/2024 22:52

I still think if this person says their name is now Miss X then you have to go along with it really. You wouldn't challenge someone who called themselves Miss if you knew they were married? Or would you?

nothingcomestonothing · 04/02/2024 22:48

PinkFrogss · 04/02/2024 22:12

What do you think the school would do if you refuse to call him “miss”? I mean that’s what it comes down to basically, and presumably the only thing stopping you.

ACAS are good at employment advice, although this may be too specialist for them. Are you in a union? If not join one asap, as you usually have to already be a member for them to help.

ACAS are captured by genderwoo, as are the unions, so I'd advise caution in expecting any help on this topic from either.

Your SLT might try to side step this, but sooner or later they are going to have to take the bull by the horns. Your colleague is in effect trying to impose his beliefs on you and worse, on the children. You might need to screw up your courage and ask, e.g. What are staff meant to say when students say 'that's Mr x why are you calling him miss x' or 'has Mr x become a woman'? Actual concrete examples of what you are worrying about. Are they asking you to gaslight the students in order to prop up the staff member's wishes, or what? They will squirm (if they are anything like the NHS management I've had to deal with) but if you ask about specific scenarios they'll have to give you an answer and then at least you'll know if they are going to prioritise this staff member, or the children.

Icantpeopleanymore · 04/02/2024 22:43

Yes, that is a worry.

I think I'm just going to try to avoid as much as possible and just hope it doesn't come up. It will though eventually. I'm wondering how long before he starts wearing dresses to school.

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JanesLittleGirl · 04/02/2024 22:42

The very definition of gaslighting.

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