Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

"Being kind to one man is being unkind to all women"

This

Well then we'd have to talk about cross dressing fetishists wouldn't we?

If we have to go to court to stop men cross dressing in schools, then that's what we'll have to do.

The equality act balances peoples rights, based on a range of protected characteristics.

Women have the right not to be subjected to cross dressing men.

If we then have to come up with a description of what that looks like, then that's what we'll have to do.

I thoight there were comments Datun. Can only now see this one but a lot of the comments are buried in replies to comments now!!

"Fetish not fantasy"

Has 28 votes

Yes to dress codes.

But what would a dress code say that would prevent a secret agp man wearing a dress, heels and makeup for thrills?

Are you suggesting a dress code which states men cannot wear dresses and makeup?
That men cannot have fake boobs?

It was from 10.30 am this morning Datun.

It is her doubling down. Or is this now quadrupling down ?

They'd get sued to hell and back.
The agps would love it.

They'd have to have a policy backed by the law.
Which explained why that women can wear the same outfit and he can't.

THIS is a reply to the top rated comment. It has 251 votes:

"And equally importantly, I don't think there was anything remotely disrespectful about Sunak's comment, whether or not Mrs Ghey was present. I can't stand the bloke, but he was simply pointing out a depressing fact: that Keir Starmer cannot remotely be relied upon to respect women's rights in this matter.

He has shifted his angle on trans so many times to keep on the right side of social media twits that he will obviously continue to do so if he's ever PM. It depresses the hëll out of me."

Interesting, thank you. What a reasonable comment.

Are there any comments (sorry Rex, I know this must be a pain), that point out she's accommodating a fetish?

Sorry it's a reply to the second top rated comment! Also forgot to @Datun so you'd see it

I think what's happening here is people can feel discrimination looming.

If a woman can wear a dress, why can't a man. Is that not discriminatory?

I'm sort of supposing it is.

So I understand why people are wondering how this would happen.

I agree.
It's going to need to be enforced socially. I just think there have been many steps taken that have undermined our ability to do this.

One of which is the clothes are just clothes belief.
And the belief that gendered clothing codes are just oppressive and can be thrown out, instead of realising they might be actually protecting women from fetishistic men.

It's going to be hard to restore any codes around this which prevent men from wearing women's clothes in public to get a sexual thrill.

This is a reply to the top comment. It has 219 votes:

"I agree with [name of top commenter]. Truth matters. It especially matters when the safety of women and girls is removed because of a culture's refusal to shoot down a lie. You are a great and kind journalist, Janice, and I know you look at this from all sides; but ultimately we can't have it both ways. We cannot 'be kind' to some of them whilst saying that others have proven that they are not worthy of the kindness (like the rapists). Truth has to be universally applied. We cannot know what is going on in that 'nice' man's head....or what he will do when given the opportunity. The ONLY way to ensure safety for women and girls is to decree that ALL men must stay out of their spaces. No exceptions. All good men will understand. Indeed, all good men already stay out of our spaces willingly in order to protect us. They also do not pretend to be one of us.
Pronouns are a foot in the door. Once applied, they make it extremely difficult to exclude a man. That is why the gender lobby have been pushing so hard for them. We must all say no. Being kind to one man is being unkind to all women.
I hope you will reconsider your approach to this , Janice."

A local school has a no shorts for men policy. Or boys for that matter (there are complaints and some boys wear skirts with shorts beneath in protest. As all the children are wearing skirts with shorts!)

And it's been added to with explicit descriptions of what's not acceptable over time

They'd use their eyes. And they wouldn't be frightened to form an opinion.

And then they wouldn't be scared to make a decision.

You just are clear that biologically male staff have a dress code.

Just the same as if they turned up in tiny shorts and a t shirt saying 'fuck the patriarchy'. Their intent at the time of putting on the t shirt is irrelevant: they can't wear it to work.

The schools I've worked in have all had acceptable dress codes.

How would I prevent it?

I'd do it exactly as I said in my post.

Have a dress code.
Speak to or send staff home who arrive cross dressed instead of making an appropriately professional gender neutral choice.
Exactly the same as if they turned up in other inappropriate and unacceptable clothes at work while in charge of children and a position of responsibility.

The work dress code would have to state what was a fetish.

How would they distinguish between a man with boobs in a dress and makeup with a fetish and one without?

Thank you Rex!

I'd love to see more of the comments, but don't worry if you haven't the time.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-sector-equality-duty-guidance-for-public-authorities

I don’t know the answer to that, just as I can’t prescribe an appropriate skirt length for a female teacher. There used to be some sort of understanding in our society as to what was appropriate, and that included men not dressing in a way that was coded as ‘for women’. That understanding has relaxed hugely, but there are still some remnants - in my workplace, I no longer had to wear a suit, or even a tie, but I would not have got away with tracksuit and trainers. Savile Row suit would have been acceptable, J Saville shell suit not so. Most people knew what was going to trigger an uncomfortable conversation with the boss.

Does the protected characteristic of GR include the legal right to pronouns? Is this a legal statement?

And this is not gender identity, this is reassignment.

And latests guidance says GI is not applicable under the EA.

Which means there's technically no legal rights for the they thems

Lots of teachers wear skirts, dresses and some wear high heels.

How would you prevent agp men who don't declare their fetish getting kicks from dressing as a women.

Even if we can insist that they are men, use male pronouns, use male spaces we'll still have agp men getting sexual thrills from how they dress in public.

As Datun said this used to be socially managed as it was understood it was transvestism and sexual so not socially acceptable.
But once clothes are just clothes it's happy days for transvestites.

My point is we can no longer prevent men getting this sexual thrill in public. It's been socially sanctioned now. Even if we win on pronouns and spaces.

How do we say it now? You're not allowed to come to work in a rubber gimp suit. Or a bikini. It's not constantly tested by inappropriately dressed employees.

Work dress code should say appropriate clothing, including non-fetish clothes.

Most people can tell the difference between a man wearing female clothing (the occasional Harry Styles outfit) and a man wanting to look like a woman.

Obviously, this is going to have to be a process, because at the moment, people won't even use the correct pronouns.

But it doesn't mean it can't be done