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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

559 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 03/02/2024 07:08

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

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Nordensost · 03/02/2024 08:43

Why the hell are so many women both here and in the ToL comments fawning over Hayton, and using female pronouns.

Get a grip.

Cannot believe Janice Turner has fallen. Her journalistic integrity, for not speaking the truth, has been shattered. She is as bad as Starmer with "1% of women have a penis".

PencilsInSpace · 03/02/2024 08:39

I think I'm about done with my Times subscription.

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 08:27

Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”.

The idea of trans widows being just passive victims is news to me. Not the impression I get at all.

I thought the term trans widow just describes a woman whose husband no longer exists because he has become a 'transwoman'. It doesn't say anything about the personality of the woman involved.

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 08:22

“ but our paths have crossed before. First at an early meeting of Woman’s Place, a group set up in 2017 by left-leaning feminists to oppose Tory plans to introduce self-identification. Most welcomed a trans woman’s support, but not one lesbian academic and her friends, who screamed from the balcony, “You’re a man!””

“Screamed”, eh Janice? Not “shouted” or “yelled”?

“Certainly Hayton, who now wears jeans, T-shirts and little make-up, seems to have reached the comfortably married stage with her female self.”

But Hayton knows that Hayton isn’t female. So how can Hayton have a female self? Disappointing if that’s Janice’s choice of wording.

“This, says Stephanie, was the hardest point, with Debbie distracted and self-obsessed. Meanwhile Stephanie shouldered the whole domestic load, going to parents’ evening alone so their children wouldn’t be embarrassed by Debbie. Hayton jokes that, alas for wives, “living as a woman” doesn’t involve doing more chores.”

Chortle, chortle, oh how so very amusing it is that domestic chores are for those boring old-fashioned women.

“Eventually, Stephanie asked Debbie to leave the family home, but that crisis point passed and their relationship began to improve.”

Skips over the detail of Hayton saying he would leave if Stephanie said so, and then refused to leave when she did say so.

“He barely dated girls until, in his third year at Newcastle University studying astrophysics, he met Stephanie, just 19…
^^
Both evangelical Christians, they did not live together before they married aged 25 and 23, and as their wedding approached, Hayton felt he must tell Stephanie his secret. He was sweating with dread as he confessed he sometimes cross-dressed, yet she would barely recall the conversation….

In 2011, Hayton could hide her feelings no longer and told Stephanie, who was shocked. “Trans issues were not in the mainstream then,” she tells me. “And my priority was our three children, then aged nine to thirteen.” The couple agreed Hayton should not transition yet, just grow longer hair.”

Makes you wonder if that pre-marital conversation about cross-dressing was one that took place out loud.

“For decades, says Hayton, transsexual women have relied upon female goodwill to use their bathrooms and changing rooms, but self-ID destroyed that precious trust. “Women were happy to take in the odd refugee from masculinity. But in the past five years it’s become a wave of colonisers, and that’s very different.””

How do you know women were happy, Debbie? Did you ask all women?

“try finding a life partner as a post-operative 22-year-old trans woman attracted to females. Your dating pool is tiny. Basically you’re looking at bisexual women and many of them end up with men.””

So way the way to make sure you get access to a heterosexual sex life, offspring, and domestic support services is: you withhold the truth from the woman you are targeting until you’re confident that being honest with your spouse won’t cause you any personal disadvantage or inconvenience.

“Transition often ends in divorce, yet they have managed to repurpose their marriage, sharing a room but not a bed, both now celibate. “It does work,” says Hayton of her remodelled genitalia, “but it’s not as easy. And without the testosterone in your body, you just can’t be bothered.” Both say they are bonded by love and a long shared history. Debbie notes that while she gained her female self, her wife lost the man she married. And Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”. “I feel sad at times, but I’m at peace and Debbie is so much happier.”

Hayton did not gain a female self. Hayton gained a new hairstyle, clothing, media profile, and career.

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 03/02/2024 08:00

Since Hayton has said he doesn’t mind male pronouns, I wish Janice had used them.

I was at the ‘You’re a man!’ meeting. It was an example of how, even in some GC / feminist groups, men like Hayton get prioritised over women.

spartanrunnergirl · 03/02/2024 07:43

Best clear description of AGP I've read. Feel for Hayton's wife and kids who are side issues in this article. I wonder what Stephanie really thinks and feels.

AuContraire · 03/02/2024 07:43

DH is full of shit.

Can't be arsed reading this, sorry Janice.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 07:41

My thoughts are with Stephanie and DH's children.

'Hayton, the son of a Cumbrian bank clerk, was three and learning to count in tens when he was first aware of the beachball. “Twenty, thirty, forty…” When Hayton reached 80, he felt an electric thrill: for some unknown reason he associated the number with the word “tights”. Already he knew women’s clothing was taboo, so he’d fish his mother’s laddered hosiery from the bin and try it on in secret. He relished any chance to cross-dress'

A three year old cross dresser, my oh my. This must be a unique situation. Especially as he was five in the other account of fishing tights out of the bin. A time travelling toddler cross dresser.

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 07:32

Thanks for the share token.

Article says this:

“Hayton has stopped using ladies’ loos, seeking out gender-neutral third spaces or, if there’s no choice, the gents.” A cynic might wonder if that’s a genuine change of heart or tactical positioning to head off a line of criticism in pursuit of media profile and book sales.

I wonder what the chances are of Janice / The Times giving same prominence to the voices of the wives with experience of these kinds of marriages?

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