Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

Once you start thinking “AGP with a fetish” rather than “transwoman” things are different. I hope the penny is starting to drop with some of the Times reading political and corporate establishment. It’s out there in plain sight. DH is now providing sunlight.

Others, India, Robin etc must be furious I am not saying any of them are AGP, but Debbie has added a question mark. Has there been much push back from TRAs?

JT has said she’ll be courteous in her use of pronouns https://twitter.com/victoriapeckham/status/1753740142156595471?s=46&t=EDiDhzusdf-5rWjRxR9Rng

I do NOT agree with her on this. A man who wants to be referred to as ‘she’ is anything but respectful to women.

But he's the only trans person speaking about the emperors new clothes so I feel he's valuable despite shortcomings

Good point that there's no mention of SH suddenly being in a lesbian relationship.

Yes. When the person talking is sharing a story that doesn't add up, that changes, inconsistencies, changed facts, or even contradicting what they claimed earlier, then usually all said details are serving another very consistent purpose.

The question is when did he stop using them? And why didn't he stop using them years and years ago when people were telling him not to?

Could he actually not stop himself?

As I said, look at the behaviour, not the words.

Yes, this.

Also, when you speak to the real experts in the duplicity, the transwidows, it's evident that infiltrating women spaces, even articles that you know women, gender critical or otherwise, will read, is all part of it.

Having people discuss you and your fetish, is all part of it.

Making headway with them. Having them invite you to women's groups.

All part of it.

If Hayton regrets it, doesn't want to subject people to it, thinks it's unhealthy, is sorry for his wife and children, then why doesn't he just not do it.

Not plaster himself across any paper who'll have him, and write a book about it.

As I said on the other thread, if this is what escalation looks like what the bloody hell is next. Because there will be a next.

And if he is really in the grip of such an overwhelming desire to satisfy his sexual urge, that he is incapable of modifying his behaviour to protect the public, then that's what Janice should be writing about.

DH does make me feel uncomfortable and there's no mention of his wife being forced to be a lesbian now. But he'll do as a poster boy for the cause, quite important that he now says he doesn't use women's toilets even if its not true historically

With regards to this article, I think the WPUK, Janice Turner, and as Tinsel wonderfully describes them, the gentry Left feminists think that men with AGP can be sanitised or sanctified by them just admitting that they are actually male and have a paraphilia. And I believe that men like KJ Went and D Hayton make these women feel like good, tolerant, adult people who are ready to discuss, compromise and meet in the middle on solving this issue, rather than giving into their feelings of discomfort, because meeting in the middle is what good, tolerant people do.

The problem with this is that there is no meeting in the middle with AGP men; their entire life (and paraphilia) revolves around boundary breaking and finding ways into what they view as women-only activities and spaces; they will not be denied and they don’t see women as full human beings so their negotiation with you is entirely a way for them to get you to eventually say 'Yes' and allow them what they want. If they have to start out negotiations sounding reasonable and self-aware in order to bring you on side, that’s what they’ll do and they have the patience to keep chipping away at your resolve until you find your position moving in their favour.

I'm allergic to them.

Sad but true.

I have no clue why she would think it would be less passive to stay and accommodate than to leave. You have to be 'strong and feisty' whatever you do and from what I can see you lose what you had anyway.

Maybe she thinks she is fighting it from within?

I did find that this article gave me the ‘ick’. Not sure if it was JT playing into being his hapless sexual prop with the pronoun thing, or if it is just the pure 🤢🤮feeling which accompanies involuntarily picturing a man ‘fancying himself’ dressed in women’s clothes, being confronted by him talking in detail about the structure of his cock and him being so shameless and public about it. It feels like exhibitionism to me. The sing-songy tone JT adopts throughout feels as though she is trying to make male exhibitionism seem normal.

I feel the article should have a warning about how it might make some people uncomfortable to read it.

Datun I agree that the inconsistencies and the over arching sexual motivation are very apparent and to a lot of people very unsavoury. Made plainly to read as such by Janice Turner’s article. I don’t feel any concern therefore that JT who met the interviewee and wrote that article is somehow at the same time blinded or oblivious to it all. There’s plenty scope to have made it a giant colour supplement puff piece if she had felt this was someone actually stunning and brave.

I think Janice is a very smart cookie. She's also tough and resilient, and she's been in this fight a long time, publishing articles on women's rights when almost no-one else was doing it. I don't think for a moment that she's being taken for a ride.

We need to get autogynephilia out there into public discourse. At the moment, very few people have heard of it. We need articles like this one, in mainstream publications, to start conversations. And I do wonder whether the choice Janice made to use female pronouns for someone who is so clearly a man will actually help people to notice and question when they come across other news articles using wrong-sex pronouns.

I did appreciate the shots that were set up to show the backing cloth and what was behind it. Quite a good visual metaphor.

I will gladly eat all of my summer and winter hats if this is the case!

@ArabellaScott

I thought I was pretty feisty for packing up that day and moving in to a hotel. Back then I had no idea about anything trans or AGP, but I trusted my instincts.

In this instance I believe the 'passive victims' is being directed at women speaking about the damage done and I guess ending the relationship. Whereas the 'strong feisty' ones are those who accommodate the fetish and accept the situation.

Does that sound accurate?

Whats the gist of her responses?

She is very good at subtly bringing out the inconsistencies.

Usually she is very clear in her column, but I suppose this is a glossy magazine style.

Anyway, time will tell.

I think that interviewing Hayton was a smart and considered move by Janice.

i'd like to think it was strategic, but I've seen far too women women fall for his disingenuous bullshit.

I do think many people will see through it, though. The selfishness cannot be hidden. In fact, it's front and centre.

if it is strategic by Janice, then fuck me she's a genius.

And another thing. DH was clearly a hands off father to his three children or he'd realise putting tights on a three - or even 5 year old - is like stuffing a live octopus into a very small envelope using only your left hand. If an adult can't do it, a child can't.

Janice is very clever and a subtle witty writer. I think she’s taking the piss out of the ludicrous sexy girl stereotype that these men like to imagine themselves as for sexual thrills. I also think the subs will not allow anyone on this broad topic not to use ‘she’ because of complaints so don’t read into that. More important to have gotten this article in print reaching a big audience.

Extending that ludicrous sexy girl stereotype to Hayton’s level of not dressing like that any more (..maybe because he ‘can’t be bothered as the testosterone has left his body‘?) is a little ironic point Janice is making about how women are critiqued by shitty men for not making a huge sexy girl effort once they are married or in a LTR. It shouldn’t be a stick to beat any woman with that they’re not dressing for the male gaze. There’s more though, that is highly relevant here, which is also that if women of Hayton’s age do wear look at me clothes they get told they’re ‘trying to be’ a sexy girl stereotype (which is an ageist stereotype) and that wanting to be seen as a sexy older woman is ludicrous and unsexy to the male gaze… so women of a certain age can’t win with the male gaze whatever they do. Janice Turner is asking whether Hayton’s kind of performed femininity gets a free pass on that critique, and why. (Answer: male sexual privilege)

I feel grubby reading lany AGP man talking about their fantasies because women are clearly such objects and accessories to them. Not equally human beings and people as much as these narcissistic men themselves are. It feels akin to someone wanking in public basically which obviously makes me feel gross and sets off red flags pointing to someone not safe to be around. I find AGP is really really unpleasant to think about as a woman.

I feel very sorry for his wife and the kids, and that’s no comment on her staying or not staying with him at all. The whole gigantic affair with self is so absolutely uncaring of anyone else’s needs though, it’s tragic and must be very hurtful in a family.

And the benefiting from female labour and tolerance is so marked. Why (for example) is Hayton described as so often being at the brink of all these professional accolades (I really liked the visual of Hayton posing wearing rubber gloves by the sink) while Hayton apparently admits not doing a fair share of the housework and it’s mentioned that Stephanie has a more minor professional career. Janice Turner is deft enough to not editorially comment but the quotes makes very obvious the male privilege and male sexual privilege that society still elevates and condones so much. Turner allows Hayton’s own words to to hoist themselves by their own petard.

And all of that said strategically in terms of public discussion of GC issues, undoubtedly it is very helpful to have someone like Hayton who falls squarely under the trans umbrella, saying publicly that transwomen can be men with AGP. And saying that they themselves refuse to use the ladies loo because they’re not a woman.
And pointing out how they have been attacked by the #bekind community for not transwomaning properly. These are all key points for everyone to understand about the gender identity politics of today and how it’s conducted.

I think that interviewing Hayton was a smart and considered move by Janice. I also think this interview with Hayton will be one off by Janice Turner as it serves its purpose making all the points. Hayton won’t be short of interview requests from elsewhere though I’m pretty sure.

Same here,I've got an oven to clean.

Be sure to pop on your Marigolds!

I was at the ‘You’re a man!’ meeting. It was an example of how, even in some GC / feminist groups, men like Hayton get prioritised over women.

Me too and yes!