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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

559 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 03/02/2024 07:08

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

OP posts:
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ArabellaScott · 10/02/2024 18:32

Its going to take the equivalent of a teacher isla bryson to bring it out into the open. Then schools and government will have to do something about it.

You mean, like a working teacher who has a sexual fetish about wearing women's clothing and being called a woman, and openly admits that, say, writes a book about it?

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 18:28

Elspyth · 10/02/2024 17:00

Get a grip. JT is one of the reasons the media now report on this issue. How Patronising.

I appreciate JT's previous work on this issue, but a journalist is only as good as their last article and I reserve the right to feel angry and betrayed when someone I have regarded as a voice of reason on this issue not only appears to have fallen hook, line and sinker for the Trojan horse that is Debbie Hayton (I wasn't convinced of this after the initial article, I thought she might be being sharper than that), but then uses insulting language about those of us, many of whom are her paying readership, who express discomfort with this position. It makes me think, "What's coming next? Is this the start of an about turn?" It makes me wonder if I should revisit her old articles and see if she was really saying what I wanted to believe she was saying. (I won't. Life's too short.)

I should add that I enjoyed reading JT's long interview with Kemi Badenoch in today's Times.

Datun · 10/02/2024 18:19

Yes. Janice Turner has been a fantastic ally.

Partly because she's a very influential writer in a mainstream newspaper, partly because she's a bloody fantastic wordsmith but also, because she genuinely was on our side.

And I think she still is.

The benefit of mumsnet is that you get, quite literally, potentially thousands of women questioning what you say.

The thrashing out of these issues here, is, I genuinely believe, second to none.

You hear all sides of the argument. You hear all the expertise. You hear all the individual people who are impacted. As a resource, it's invaluable. And, of course, you also hear all the TRA arguments, with relentless monotony.

it makes you question everything, it gives you information, it gives you knowledge that you would otherwise not acquire, it brings you to a cohesive, comprehensive argument.

And then, it does something extra. It makes you evolve. It makes your argument evolve. In real time, you see the impact of what you thought was okay, that suddenly isn't okay.

Because you hear from women who you might never have considered, and realise that they too, are impacted.

I have no other way of saying this that doesn't sound a little patronising, but maybe Janice Turner (and Andrew Doyle), might benefit from a spell on here.

To thrash out what they think. To hone their argument. To listen to people who are not like them, maybe.

What was interesting to me was that James Kirkup, another brilliant writer and ally, wrote an article that women here, including me, didn't quite get. And we criticised it, and he bloody well showed up here to explain.

It was good that he took that step.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 10/02/2024 17:56

I think any teacher who writes a book about what sexually arouses them shouldn't be teaching.

Wattnow · 10/02/2024 17:40

What I mean is - what would we do if a male teacher who wears a suit and tie to work published a book about what sexuallly arouses him?

Let's do exactly that regardless of outfit.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 17:18

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 16:47

I feel as if GC women have allowed Janice Turner to stand on our shoulders and now she's pissing down on us. Not cool. Not one bit cool. But I'm very heartened to see the direction of the comments on the article.

Well, I understand what you mean even if you're being told to get a grip (unnecessarily rude, I thought).

It's all very well for Janice to have the luxury of "courtesy", and the further luxury of deciding not to delve into awkward matters like the schools guidance, or what goes on in an AGP's school when that AGP is right there, posing about in marigolds when he doesn't help round the house, but most of us don't have such luxuries.

And some of us decided to lend support in ways we could, like having a subscription because of journalists unafraid of material reality.

Like you, I'm glad the Times readers are signalling their displeasure on the snotty attitude and refusal to even try to understand if things might have gone a bit wrong.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 10/02/2024 17:02

To be fair, Janice was in this right from the start - she was at Speakers Corner in 2017

We were talking about it here in 2013.

On reflection, i think lots of people were against the Conservatives self id proposals, more than failures of the GRA and EqA.

Elspyth · 10/02/2024 17:00

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 16:47

I feel as if GC women have allowed Janice Turner to stand on our shoulders and now she's pissing down on us. Not cool. Not one bit cool. But I'm very heartened to see the direction of the comments on the article.

Get a grip. JT is one of the reasons the media now report on this issue. How Patronising.

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 17:00

Thank you for posting that tweet, Utopia. Hadn't seen it and it's pertinent n

EmpressaurusOfTheScathingTinsel · 10/02/2024 16:54

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 16:47

I feel as if GC women have allowed Janice Turner to stand on our shoulders and now she's pissing down on us. Not cool. Not one bit cool. But I'm very heartened to see the direction of the comments on the article.

To be fair, Janice was in this right from the start - she was at Speakers Corner in 2017 when TRAs beat up Maria Maclachlan and sat near me at the event we’d all gone there for. It was the first of its kind (I think) & the TRAs were all outside shouting BURN IT DOWN! The police escorted us out afterwards.

She was also writing about this long before anyone else.

I don’t agree with her about the pronouns but I still have a lot of respect for her.

KohlaParasaurus · 10/02/2024 16:47

I feel as if GC women have allowed Janice Turner to stand on our shoulders and now she's pissing down on us. Not cool. Not one bit cool. But I'm very heartened to see the direction of the comments on the article.

UtopiaPlanitia · 10/02/2024 16:40

I found this interesting tweet from Jennifer Bilek with regards everything that’s been discussed since That Article was published:

https://x.com/bjportraits/status/1756030842587976029?s=20

'Needing to understand male fetishists that are creating harm, or the fetishes themselves, does not warrant promoting them, the men who have them, or having them discuss their proclivities in public, ad nauseam.

This is not as complicated as people are making it.

If you are a clinician and are so interested in this, why not keep it in your lab or clinic - why do we all have to hear about this revolting entitlement of some men as if they and their fetishes were the second coming of Christ?

Jane Caputi, in The Age Of Sex Crimes, makes an extremely cogent argument that the public attention given serial killers manifests more of them because they crave attention.

It seems abundantly clear at this stage that these narcissists claiming they want to “have women’s bodies,” are proliferating like wild fire the more attention they get all over social media.

I am so not buying this crap that we NEED to understand them. We need to stop their entitlement to walk over women’s and children’s boundaries - and make no mistake, the boundary I am talking about as far as women goes, is wearing synthetic facsimiles of their anatomy and calling it treatment. This is not treatment!!! Our wholly sexed humanity is not a medical cure for men’s abberant sexual issues, ffs.'

ResisterRex · 10/02/2024 15:53

I thought the same, Utopia.

Times comments update for the interested(!).

441 comments total
Top comment remains the top one with 483 votes
Top reply to the comment comment is on 331 votes
Previous second placed comment still in second place on 317 votes
Previous third placed comment still in third place on 273 votes

So there you are. Quite a few of us ungrateful uppity wims need shutting up, it would seem.

ScribblingPixie · 10/02/2024 15:38

I had no idea until recently how conditional our rights as women are, how easily they are lost.

Me neither. What a shock the last few years have been. There's no room to give a single inch more when whole feet and yards have been lost.

Sealwright · 10/02/2024 15:24

I had no idea until recently how conditional our rights as women are, how easily they are lost. How we like them by being told, bullied, guilty, co-erced into giving them away
We have to remain vigilant, forever.
We need to work now, make sure our daughters don't drop the ball.
Be kind to women
Hold the line

Slothtoes · 10/02/2024 15:10

Absolutely right UtopiaPlanitia this is the truth (the quote Datun pulled out). As women our rights have always been conditional and so we will always need to strategise around that.

Chariothorses · 10/02/2024 15:09

@HipTightOnions Yes this gaslighting by school staff is enabling CSA. In her evidence to court, the girl victim in the Amy/ Andrew Miller abuse case said she thought he would be safe as he was trans/ dressed as a woman.
https://reduxx.info/scotland-transgender-butcher-pleads-guilty-to-abducting-and-sexually-abusing-schoolgirl/

This is one of the issues the new draft schools guidance is supposed to sort out- preventing schools trying to force traumatised victims of CSA to pretend males are female and removing female bodily privacy.

SCOTLAND: Transgender Butcher Pleads Guilty to Abducting and Sexually Abusing Schoolgirl - Reduxx

A Scottish butcher charged with the abduction and rape of an 11 year-old girl has pleaded guilty to the grisly crimes at the High Court in Edinburgh today. Andrew Miller, 53, who also uses the female persona Amy George, has admitted to kidnapping the c...

https://reduxx.info/scotland-transgender-butcher-pleads-guilty-to-abducting-and-sexually-abusing-schoolgirl

Datun · 10/02/2024 14:37

And if people are trying to deny us our rights because they feel we’re insufficiently polite then our rights were always conditional rather than fundamental.

Well said.

RethinkingLife · 10/02/2024 14:34

No-one listens to nice women, especially not men: they pat us on the head and tell us to run along - we often have to lose our rag with them before they take us seriously

Reminds me of this re: KJK's appearance on This Morning. (Blimey, was it really 2018?)

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3378698-Disrespectful-Woman-Posie-P-on-This-Morning

Disrespectful Woman :) (Posie P on This Morning) | Mumsnet

I ^desperately^ want *Disrespectful Woman* on a T-shirt. *Disrespectful’ woman faces backlash for laughing at trans women’s struggles during TV deb...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3378698-Disrespectful-Woman-Posie-P-on-This-Morning

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 10/02/2024 14:15

There's are lots of ways we treat people differently, despite the EqA existing. We dont let teachers have relationship with their 16 year pupils, for example.

If the EqA means that children are put in dangers of being exposed to adult sexual behaviour, the EqA is wrong.

Sadly, its going to take massive saftguarding fail for those who should know better to acknowledge it.

UtopiaPlanitia · 10/02/2024 14:15

Please forgive me being hyperbolic, but Andrew Doyle’s article in Unherd (and his podcast with Benjamin Boyce) coupled with both of Janice Turner’s articles (and her tweets) is giving me the feeling that they’re both doing a version of: "You ungrateful peasants, how dare you turn on me after all I’ve done for you. I’ve been missed off dinner party invitation lists for standing up for you ingrates." 😬

In reality, with no hyperbole, my response to them is that I’m just fed up of being told off for not being nice enough. I don’t want to be nice in the face of diminishing women’s rights; being nice won’t save children from medicalisation or keep sex criminals out of women’s prisons; being nice won’t protect lesbians from fetishisation and the imposition of fetishistic men into their lives. Being nice won’t protect gay boys from being diagnosed as not masculine enough to be considered men.

No-one listens to nice women, especially not men: they pat us on the head and tell us to run along - we often have to lose our rag with them before they take us seriously. I don’t care if people think we’re rude as long as we’re effective. And if people are trying to deny us our rights because they feel we’re insufficiently polite then our rights were always conditional rather than fundamental.

Floisme · 10/02/2024 14:13

rogdmum · 10/02/2024 13:30

I suspect (but it is only a guess) if a parent were to push back, they would be welcome to remove their child from the school. I don’t know, though- it may well be that no one at the school has complained or questioned it.

It would be good to know whether given that DH says he doesn’t mind which pronouns are used for him, does he tell pupils they are free to use whichever pronouns they want, no pressure? Or does DH in the school setting, quietly and conveniently go with school policy and the sentiment stated on their website that “to actively misgender a person is an act of hostility”?

Has any journalist or podcaster ever put this question to Debbie Hayton?
If not (and I can't recall it happening) then that is quite startling. Being nosey and asking awkward questions is part of their job.

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 14:04

Yes Agps would love strict sex based dress codes. The fact that the EA would allow them to wear the women's code would reinforce their identity and the thrill.

HipTightOnions · 10/02/2024 14:03

And everyone is pretending that a male teacher demanding children call him 'miss' is not a safeguarding issue.

Including, for example, our DSL, who is adamant that this is not a safeguarding problem.

Actually, I think he truly believes it is not.

MalagaNights · 10/02/2024 14:01

Take away the official gatekeepers…and women may well introduce informal gatekeepers of their own that may be far less welcoming of transsexuals”

Let's hope he's right.

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