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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

559 replies

CaptainWarbeck · 03/02/2024 07:08

Share token link here: Debbie Hayton: the trans woman taking on the trans activists

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/df87fe47-3dd3-4f35-ac48-81f54aeb418f?shareToken=a53b2f201cdd4c204b9009b204cb1ef3

Janice neatly runs through a history of trans issues with Debbie including a discussion of AGP. An excellent read I thought and will get a wide audience as a Saturday Times Magazine article.

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28
Nordensost · 03/02/2024 18:20

I honestly cannot fathom why so many supremely intelligent women are kow -towing to Hayton.
I wouldn't call myself a feminist, I know zilch about feminist theory.

But he's a bloke. He wears clothes that would be typically be bought from the woman's part of a clothing store. Fine, I've bought fisherman-style jumpers from the men's department. No big deal.

But with the breast implants, and
that he tells his students to call him Mrs/Miss Hayton. How is he any different to this Canadian bloke?

Janice has completely disregarded the children wrapped up in all of this. Shame on her.

Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times
WifeOfTiresias · 03/02/2024 17:45

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 08:22

“ but our paths have crossed before. First at an early meeting of Woman’s Place, a group set up in 2017 by left-leaning feminists to oppose Tory plans to introduce self-identification. Most welcomed a trans woman’s support, but not one lesbian academic and her friends, who screamed from the balcony, “You’re a man!””

“Screamed”, eh Janice? Not “shouted” or “yelled”?

“Certainly Hayton, who now wears jeans, T-shirts and little make-up, seems to have reached the comfortably married stage with her female self.”

But Hayton knows that Hayton isn’t female. So how can Hayton have a female self? Disappointing if that’s Janice’s choice of wording.

“This, says Stephanie, was the hardest point, with Debbie distracted and self-obsessed. Meanwhile Stephanie shouldered the whole domestic load, going to parents’ evening alone so their children wouldn’t be embarrassed by Debbie. Hayton jokes that, alas for wives, “living as a woman” doesn’t involve doing more chores.”

Chortle, chortle, oh how so very amusing it is that domestic chores are for those boring old-fashioned women.

“Eventually, Stephanie asked Debbie to leave the family home, but that crisis point passed and their relationship began to improve.”

Skips over the detail of Hayton saying he would leave if Stephanie said so, and then refused to leave when she did say so.

“He barely dated girls until, in his third year at Newcastle University studying astrophysics, he met Stephanie, just 19…
^^
Both evangelical Christians, they did not live together before they married aged 25 and 23, and as their wedding approached, Hayton felt he must tell Stephanie his secret. He was sweating with dread as he confessed he sometimes cross-dressed, yet she would barely recall the conversation….

In 2011, Hayton could hide her feelings no longer and told Stephanie, who was shocked. “Trans issues were not in the mainstream then,” she tells me. “And my priority was our three children, then aged nine to thirteen.” The couple agreed Hayton should not transition yet, just grow longer hair.”

Makes you wonder if that pre-marital conversation about cross-dressing was one that took place out loud.

“For decades, says Hayton, transsexual women have relied upon female goodwill to use their bathrooms and changing rooms, but self-ID destroyed that precious trust. “Women were happy to take in the odd refugee from masculinity. But in the past five years it’s become a wave of colonisers, and that’s very different.””

How do you know women were happy, Debbie? Did you ask all women?

“try finding a life partner as a post-operative 22-year-old trans woman attracted to females. Your dating pool is tiny. Basically you’re looking at bisexual women and many of them end up with men.””

So way the way to make sure you get access to a heterosexual sex life, offspring, and domestic support services is: you withhold the truth from the woman you are targeting until you’re confident that being honest with your spouse won’t cause you any personal disadvantage or inconvenience.

“Transition often ends in divorce, yet they have managed to repurpose their marriage, sharing a room but not a bed, both now celibate. “It does work,” says Hayton of her remodelled genitalia, “but it’s not as easy. And without the testosterone in your body, you just can’t be bothered.” Both say they are bonded by love and a long shared history. Debbie notes that while she gained her female self, her wife lost the man she married. And Stephanie, feisty and tough, balks at the idea she is a passive victim, a “trans widow”. “I feel sad at times, but I’m at peace and Debbie is so much happier.”

Hayton did not gain a female self. Hayton gained a new hairstyle, clothing, media profile, and career.

If my experience is anything to go by, that premarital conversation was probably a played down load of half truths including "I've only dressed occasionally", "I'll never do it again" and "I'm absolutely sure I'm not transsexual". Poor Stephanie, a young woman in her early twenties who probably had next to no knowledge of the trans world, wouldn't have stood a chance. Then I bet that misleading conversation was dragged up when Debbie decided to transition to justify why Stephanie had no right to object as "I told you years ago."

Datun · 03/02/2024 17:36

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 17:26

I'm going to quote part of the other interview from 2020 showing just how much DH respects his wife.

Interviewer: So Stephanie, what was this period like for you then? Where Debbie is becoming more and more consumed with this idea that she wants to transition? She's first of all, what was the first inkling for you that, 'okay, there's something more here that has to be dealt with' rather than just something that Debbie is privately dealing with. When did it first come on your radar that we have to deal with something here?

Stephanie: (sarcastically) I don't think it was a case of coming on to the radar, I think it was a case of being told. I can't actually remember the exact announcement. Except I do know that Debbie said it to me. Said that she was a woman born in a man's body, that she wasn't going to transition because it would upset me, and our family life too much, but that rather people had already been told.

And over the next few months, as Debbie said, it did become very consuming of her, that I think links with some of the trans community and certain counsellors didn't help. So that Debbie would announce to me that I had nothing to say on the matter because I wasn't trans, so I didn't understand.

That this was, well first of all, it was that she wasn't going to transition even though she really should do, and then it became actually she had to transition, and that she was going to transition whether I agreed with it or not, whether I wanted it or not. And that if necessary that she would walk away, leave us all, as long as she could transition.

A man who treats his wife like that does not respect women.

Bingo.

If necessary Hayton would walk away, and leave his entire family, in order to get aroused by pretending he's a woman.

And Janice Taylor thinks he's not doing this in the school he works in!!!

C'mon Janice!! Wake up.

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 17:26

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 16:02

“The issue of pronouns is becoming absolutist on BOTH sides. Stonewall demands even bearded rapists be called "she", GC ultras refuse to call any trans woman "she". I reject both positions. I never call male sex offenders she/her. But I will be courteous to those who respect women”

“GC Ultras”

Wow.

“those who respect women”

A man who repeatedly misleads his wife, and does whatever suits him whenever it suits him regardless of the impact on his wife, is someone who respects women?

Maybe we’re learning that JT respects women about as much as DH does.

I'm going to quote part of the other interview from 2020 showing just how much DH respects his wife.

Interviewer: So Stephanie, what was this period like for you then? Where Debbie is becoming more and more consumed with this idea that she wants to transition? She's first of all, what was the first inkling for you that, 'okay, there's something more here that has to be dealt with' rather than just something that Debbie is privately dealing with. When did it first come on your radar that we have to deal with something here?

Stephanie: (sarcastically) I don't think it was a case of coming on to the radar, I think it was a case of being told. I can't actually remember the exact announcement. Except I do know that Debbie said it to me. Said that she was a woman born in a man's body, that she wasn't going to transition because it would upset me, and our family life too much, but that rather people had already been told.

And over the next few months, as Debbie said, it did become very consuming of her, that I think links with some of the trans community and certain counsellors didn't help. So that Debbie would announce to me that I had nothing to say on the matter because I wasn't trans, so I didn't understand.

That this was, well first of all, it was that she wasn't going to transition even though she really should do, and then it became actually she had to transition, and that she was going to transition whether I agreed with it or not, whether I wanted it or not. And that if necessary that she would walk away, leave us all, as long as she could transition.

A man who treats his wife like that does not respect women.

Datun · 03/02/2024 17:13

lol Debbie H is not transphobic. Debbie is a sterling, totally typical example of what a trans identified male is.

He might just be a little smarter than some of you.

ButterflyHatched · 03/02/2024 16:58

For god's sake, can someone please just issue her the Ernst Rohm medal for useful idiocy? I don't have high hopes but it might have a small chance of sparing us the tedium of seeing yet another self-defeating cognitive dissonance-laden article from the Most Transphobic Trans Woman In Britain.

Datun · 03/02/2024 16:56

Does she actually understand what's going on?

A man who presents as a woman as a sexual fetish, will become sexually aroused by being regarded as, spoken to as or 'treated' as a female, (be that pronouns, or inclusion in a woman's only space or service.)

So when he is asking his pupils, to call him Miss, it's a turn on. It's sexually arousing.

Does Janice really think that children should be providing their teacher with sexual arousal?

I'm sure she absolutely doesn't.

So what is she not seeing? What are her eyes sliding past?

This is a journalist. And a journalist who never wastes a single word. What, exactly, does she think she's actually written about?

Does she think that a man who has owned up to getting turned on by being treated as a woman, suddenly isn't that person when they're in a school??

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 16:35

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 16:12

“GC Ultras” = "I'm GC, but Not Like Them."

Are we really now going to see more women spit on us as they agree we were right all along but they will do it all in a Much Naicer Way?

There's already been plenty of that all along ime. Us domesticated zombies are expendable, of course.

Metamorphosising · 03/02/2024 16:17

BettyFilous · 03/02/2024 16:11

You have to ask whether a teacher who was so open about having one of the other sexually-motivated paraphilias like frotteurism, exhibitionism or voyeurism would be allowed to practice it in a school setting.

Yes. I remember a while back a female teacher was sacked for having an only fans account, or something, yet this chap is openly divulging his sexual preferences which he likes to indulge in 24/7, otherwise it is like holding a beach all under water. I am sure many, many men would describe their own sexual urges as being like trying hold a beach ball under water too, but they manage it without letting it out at work.

EarringsandLipstick · 03/02/2024 16:15

I found the article interesting. Mainly because it really illustrates what an unmitigated mess, for all involved, the concept of 'trans' is.

The clear description of the surgery DH has undergone is shocking. It's so brutal, and they remain with a permanently open wound. How this is allowed to be done is beyond imagination.

I wouldn't share in all the criticism of JT. I think sensibly she does much to allow the article & DH's words, speak for themselves.

The saddest part is the effect on SH & DH's children. What a messed up situation they both enabled.

The starkest thing that comes out is regardless of approaching it from a TWAW position OR an AGP one, it's clear that there are deep psychological issues underpinning the reasons men and women embark on this doomed quest to 'change gender'. They are being failed by the medical profession and society in general backing their delusions.

Shoppingfiend · 03/02/2024 16:14

If the couple are strict Christians you marry and promise to remain together in sickness and in health. Stephanie will stick it out because if this.

UtopiaPlanitia · 03/02/2024 16:13

I’m beginning to think that there would be chickens who really feel you could totally achieve a middle ground with the fox. Or sheep who think we should at least try negotiating with the wolf and that we just have to see both POVs as valid 😉😬

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 16:12

“GC Ultras” = "I'm GC, but Not Like Them."

Are we really now going to see more women spit on us as they agree we were right all along but they will do it all in a Much Naicer Way?

BettyFilous · 03/02/2024 16:11

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 15:03

'Her honesty & realism about biology has cost her a great deal. For wearing a t-shirt saying "Trans women are men" she lost the chance to lead her trade union. Even so she is beseiged too by extreme gender critical feminists, some who say she shouldn't be allowed to teach.'

'Extreme gc' - fantastic.

Hayton is open that cross dressing is a fetish that he does for sexual reasons. I do question why it's okay for him to teach children dressed for his fetish. Happy to hear the explanation of why this is 'extreme'.

You have to ask whether a teacher who was so open about having one of the other sexually-motivated paraphilias like frotteurism, exhibitionism or voyeurism would be allowed to practice it in a school setting.

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 16:09

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 15:44

beseiged too by extreme gender critical feminists, some who say she shouldn't be allowed to teach

Because manipulating and using children in a fetish is such a brilliant aspiration for a teacher?

This is Janice joining the leftist cool girl factions desperately trying to find a middle ground to occupy isn't it? And like CJC and Starmer, if she truly is being very clever and hiding meanings, then it should come with explanatory notes for us mere mortals.

I shall crack on extremely defending the rights of women and children not to be used for the sexual and psychological wibbles of men. Even the naice men.

Edited

“This is Janice joining the leftist cool girl factions desperately trying to find a middle ground to occupy isn't it? And like CJC and Starmer, if she truly is being very clever and hiding meanings, then it should come with explanatory notes for us mere mortals.”

This.

And reading that tweet it crossed my mind to wonder if she’s got a Labour Party comms job being lined up in the background.

Metamorphosising · 03/02/2024 16:04

It smacks of #bekind.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 16:04

The pronouns irritate me and Barracker's excellent article remains excellent. But it's not just that.

For me, the characterisations of trans widows is what is really gravely wrong.

Plus the apparent implied suggestion that we should be okay with making accommodations for men's fetishes, such as doing the things that turn them on - and so long as they are being honest about it's okay.

I'm not happy to play along with a man's fetish that depends on my discomfort.

LoobiJee · 03/02/2024 16:02

Leafstamp · 03/02/2024 14:40

JT has said she’ll be courteous in her use of pronouns https://twitter.com/victoriapeckham/status/1753740142156595471?s=46&t=EDiDhzusdf-5rWjRxR9Rng

I do NOT agree with her on this. A man who wants to be referred to as ‘she’ is anything but respectful to women.

“The issue of pronouns is becoming absolutist on BOTH sides. Stonewall demands even bearded rapists be called "she", GC ultras refuse to call any trans woman "she". I reject both positions. I never call male sex offenders she/her. But I will be courteous to those who respect women”

“GC Ultras”

Wow.

“those who respect women”

A man who repeatedly misleads his wife, and does whatever suits him whenever it suits him regardless of the impact on his wife, is someone who respects women?

Maybe we’re learning that JT respects women about as much as DH does.

Froodwithatowel · 03/02/2024 15:44

beseiged too by extreme gender critical feminists, some who say she shouldn't be allowed to teach

Because manipulating and using children in a fetish is such a brilliant aspiration for a teacher?

This is Janice joining the leftist cool girl factions desperately trying to find a middle ground to occupy isn't it? And like CJC and Starmer, if she truly is being very clever and hiding meanings, then it should come with explanatory notes for us mere mortals.

I shall crack on extremely defending the rights of women and children not to be used for the sexual and psychological wibbles of men. Even the naice men.

Metamorphosising · 03/02/2024 15:31

popebishop · 03/02/2024 15:21

If JT called DH "he" in the article then discussion about that would eclipse the content.

People need to see what is being said, not hand derailers a topic to derail about.

I disagree. The use of female pronouns for a man who admits to getting off on perceiving himself as though he were female, eclipses much of the good the article can do. I think it also is hurtful for his family who still use male pronouns for him. Calling him she is just playing into his fantasy projection persona.

popebishop · 03/02/2024 15:21

If JT called DH "he" in the article then discussion about that would eclipse the content.

People need to see what is being said, not hand derailers a topic to derail about.

OldCrone · 03/02/2024 15:16

Leafstamp · 03/02/2024 14:40

JT has said she’ll be courteous in her use of pronouns https://twitter.com/victoriapeckham/status/1753740142156595471?s=46&t=EDiDhzusdf-5rWjRxR9Rng

I do NOT agree with her on this. A man who wants to be referred to as ‘she’ is anything but respectful to women.

But Hayton has said that he doesn't mind being called 'he', so there's no need for JT to do this.

She needs to read this.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

Pronouns are Rohypnol • Fair Play For Women

There’s a lot of chat around about pronouns right now. Specifically, ‘preferred’ pronouns. By which is usually meant, the pronouns a person would prefer.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns

Datun · 03/02/2024 15:10

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 15:03

'Her honesty & realism about biology has cost her a great deal. For wearing a t-shirt saying "Trans women are men" she lost the chance to lead her trade union. Even so she is beseiged too by extreme gender critical feminists, some who say she shouldn't be allowed to teach.'

'Extreme gc' - fantastic.

Hayton is open that cross dressing is a fetish that he does for sexual reasons. I do question why it's okay for him to teach children dressed for his fetish. Happy to hear the explanation of why this is 'extreme'.

Loads of men are completely open that they've got an AGP fetish. And they say they're men.

The only reason Hayton is being listened to, is he doesn't dwell on the pornographic, sissy fetish side. He just skims past it, repackaging the entire thing as an angst laden victim narrative, who supports women reeeeely

Datun · 03/02/2024 15:06

Leafstamp · 03/02/2024 14:40

JT has said she’ll be courteous in her use of pronouns https://twitter.com/victoriapeckham/status/1753740142156595471?s=46&t=EDiDhzusdf-5rWjRxR9Rng

I do NOT agree with her on this. A man who wants to be referred to as ‘she’ is anything but respectful to women.

Okay, it's not a subtle piece of strategy. She really doesn't get it.

I'm not totally surprised.

AGP men have successfully gained themselves fucking civil rights, for God sake. They got every political party to legitimise them.

She doesn't yet understand the absolutely gargantuan nature of this takeover from men who not only don't respect women, they go out of their way to use them.

I'm glad to see the pushback on Twitter. She must know that the women trying to explain this to her and being furious with her, are not fucking 'ultra'.

She'll get there. I'm convinced of it.

ArabellaScott · 03/02/2024 15:03

'Her honesty & realism about biology has cost her a great deal. For wearing a t-shirt saying "Trans women are men" she lost the chance to lead her trade union. Even so she is beseiged too by extreme gender critical feminists, some who say she shouldn't be allowed to teach.'

'Extreme gc' - fantastic.

Hayton is open that cross dressing is a fetish that he does for sexual reasons. I do question why it's okay for him to teach children dressed for his fetish. Happy to hear the explanation of why this is 'extreme'.

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